was there a "transitional Rifle"

[ekettenburg]

The 'Musician's Rifle' has a date of 1756 and NJ scratched on it, and nobody has yet been able to give me a reason to doubt the authenticity of that scratching. This would put the rifle in use by 1756, probably via defense of forts in northern NJ, and it may have actually been made earlier than that. There is certainly nothing about the gun that would lead one to believe it's *later* than 1756. And it's a real beast. I'd say there we have one rifle at the least that is in fact dated to the 1750s; after all, we take a lot of the scratchings and dates on the old fowlers at face value, so why would a rifle be treated differently?

 

[lexington1]

Eric, is the Musicians rifle published anywhere? I've been looking on the internet trying to find pics of it, and I am away from home right now.

 

[plmeek]

...the chunky buttstocks and sliding wooden patchboxes [of the German Jaeger] evolved into the slender rifle with brass patchbox that was mostly seen by the 1770s

That's been at the heart of the OP's original question and what most of the posts in this thread have been discussing. Assuming there was an evolution, are there American "transitional" rifles we can point to along that evolutionary process? The evidence of such is sadly lacking.

I thought about looking at it from another direction. Assuming that the American longrifle evolved from the short barreled German Jaeger, what evidence do we have of use or existence of short barreled German Jaegers in the American Colonies in the early 1700s?

Looking through Shumway's RCA Vol. 1 and in the chapter on German guns, I found he presented only two that showed use in America--#7 and #8. Neither of which have short barrels. RCA #7 has a barrel that is 39-7/8 inches long and the barrel on RCA #8 is 44 inches long. I would think that if Shumway knew of a short barreled German Jaeger that had seen use in America, he would have tried very hard to include it in his book.

I don't have a copy of Shumway's book on German guns that was basically a reprint of his "Longrifles of Note" articles in Muzzle Blasts but I did borrow a copy from a friend and read most of it. I may be wrong as I'm working from memory, but I don't recall any short barreled German Jaeger with an American connection in it.

I would be interested if anyone is aware of short barreled Jaegers in the Colonies in the first half of the 18th century.

James Hanson in Firearms of the Fur Trade wrote:

The Indians' use of rifles apparently started in the American South. The earliest reference to Indians and rifles dates to 1719, when South Carolina became a royal colony and the sale of spirits, swan shot, and "rifled barrell'd guns" to Indians was prohibited. I assume these were short-barreled Swiss or German Jaeger rifles.

I started looking for archaeological evidence found at Indian sites that might have uncovered some of these Jaeger barrels. Typical sources such T.M. Hamilton didn't turn up anything. I did some internet searching and found a useful document, THE FUR TRADE AND HISTORICAL ARCHAEOLOGY A BIBLIOGRAPHY, Complied by Michael A. Pfeiffer (copy attached).

Based on Hanson's comments about rifle use by Southern Indians, I scanned the bibliography for papers about sites in the South. I didn't find much. I knew the fur trade in the South was predominately the deer skin trade with some minor trade in fur bearing animals, but was surprised at the small amount of academic research directed towards it. T.M. Hamilton wrote about several collections in the South that he studied, but evidently these were mostly collections from amateur archaeologists. The professionals appear to focus on pre-contact sites and antebellum sites.

I read in Shumway's RCA Vol. 2, Chapter 18 about a rifle found at the Conestoga Town site not far from Lancaster, PA. This was the last town occupied by the Susquehannocks from near the end of the 17th century up to 1763 when the last of its inhabitants were killed by the Paxtang Boys. Shumway wrote that the archaeologists found

a jaeger rifle mounted in iron, with a rifled barrel of about .55 caliber, a flared muzzle, and a length of 41 inches. The butt-plate has a notch indicating that the butt of the rifle carried a sliding wood patchbox. Germanic or jaeger rifles of the 18th century almost always had barrels of less than 36 inches length, and it seems more likely that this was an American-made rifle barrel.

Note Shumway's bias concerning lengths of German barrels. At the time Shumway published the RCA books, Bob Lienemann hadn't uncovered the letters of Caspar Wistar showing he was importing in the 1730s rifles with barrels 39 and 40 inches long. This was an honest lack of knowledge on Shumway's part, but he made another error or typo in the quoted passage.

I had recalled reading in another book that the rifle barrel found at the Conestoga Town site was much shorter that the 41 inches that Shumway wrote. I racked my brain for several days trying to remember where I had read the contradictory description. I couldn't find it. In the end I gave up and ordered the book by Dr. Barry C. Kent that Shumway referenced. At the time Shumway was writing, it was an unpublished manuscript but has since been published by the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission.

Dr. Kent wrote in his book:

Nine complete flintlocks were found at Conestoga. Here for the first time we see a few guns of some quality. Four of these guns showed refinements in their hardware which would indicate that they were not ordinary trade guns. These included such features as engraved butt plates, open-work and engraved side plates, thumb plates and fancy ramrod pipes. One of these was a Jaeger with all iron hardware and a full octagonal .55-caliber, 35-inch rifled barrel with a flared muzzle. Its iron butt plate had a notch to receive its sliding, wooden patch-box cover.

Finally, some evidence of a sub-36 inch barrel Jaeger at or before the F&I War!

I continued to look through my books on Kentucky rifles and came across this interesting rifle in James Johnston's Accouterments II.

Johnston believed this rifle was an Indian restock of a Jaeger rifle with a 24-inch barrel. Now we're talking...Or at least whispering.

Only two examples of Indian owned short-barrel Jaeger rifles is a little underwhelming considering all the Type G artifacts that have been found at archaeological sites and surviving whole Type G's.

Were the short-barrel Jaeger ever that common in North America? The evidence doesn't support the notion.

Is this the final nail in the coffin of the myth of the "transition rifle"?

excess650, I apologize if I misinterpreted your post. I agree "the longrifle was the product of mostly of German and Swiss immigrants." What doesn't seem to be supported by any evidence is the use of the term "evolved". The evidence indicates the the short-barrel Jaeger and the long-barrel Jaeger coexisted in the Germanic countries at the time those German and Swiss immigrants were coming to the colonies. The longer barreled German rifle might have been the preference in America from the get-go.

 

[plmeek]

Eric, I forgot about the 'Musician's Rifle'. And I had just been discussing the similarities between the patch box on it to the ones on the 'Brass Barrel Rifle" and RCA #43 last month.

Wesley, this is the only picture I have of the 'Musician's Rifle'. It does show the date "1756" scratched on the lid of the patch box.

 

[lexington1]

Thanks Bob. Now that I see the picture I think that rifle is in the last 'Accouterments' book. I'll look it up when I get back home.

 

[rich pierce]

Wallace Gusler mentioned and showed a couple pictures of the Musicians Rifle in a Muzzle Blasts article that was not specifically focused on that gun. Also known as the Fessler rifle.
The “chunky jaeger” versus the “slim American longrifle of the 1770s” is not a clear or accurate comparison in my experience. The dated Oerter rifles, the big Reading rifles with sliding wooden boxes, and the very early Dickert and Schroyer-attributed rifles are not “slim” guns. And Germanic rifles of the 1750s to 1760s are usually wonderfully balanced handy guns with no extra wood compared to American longrifles with buttplates of similar dimensions. I don’t think “slim” about American longrifles until around the 1790s. The lines and architecture of Germanic guns vary tremendously as do American longrifles of any attributed decade.

 

[ekettenburg]

That photo is one of the scans that I had in my long-defunct photobucket years back. Originally I had posted them over on ALR accidentally although it really doesn't matter any more. I'll see if I still have stored digitally or otherwise I'll scan them again unless someone else has them saved. They're not bad, give a decent overview of the entire rifle. If you look closely at the '1756' date, you can faintly see the "J" in "NJ" under it although the camera glare has washed out the "N."

The box is fairly heavy cast brass and while it resembles the box on the BBR (and it's sibling by same maker) in simplicity of design, I'm sure it's just a coincidence in that they're all just basic 2-piece boxes. The latch mechanism on this gun is much more complex, really almost a sliding door latch in miniature.

 

[Brokennock]

Great stuff these last few posts. Thank you gentlemen.

Where and how do some of you get access to view and sometimes handle these artifacts?

 

[Brokennock]

That's been at the heart of the OP's original question and what most of the posts in this thread have been discussing. Assuming there was an evolution, are there American "transitional" rifles we can point to along that evolutionary process? The evidence of such is sadly lacking.

I thought about looking at it from another direction. Assuming that the American longrifle evolved from the short barreled German Jaeger, what evidence do we have of use or existence of short barreled German Jaegers in the American Colonies in the early 1700s?

Looking through Shumway's RCA Vol. 1 and in the chapter on German guns, I found he presented only two that showed use in America--#7 and #8. Neither of which have short barrels. RCA #7 has a barrel that is 39-7/8 inches long and the barrel on RCA #8 is 44 inches long. I would think that if Shumway knew of a short barreled German Jaeger that had seen use in America, he would have tried very hard to include it in his book.

I don't have a copy of Shumway's book on German guns that was basically a reprint of his "Longrifles of Note" articles in Muzzle Blasts but I did borrow a copy from a friend and read most of it. I may be wrong as I'm working from memory, but I don't recall any short barreled German Jaeger with an American connection in it.

I would be interested if anyone is aware of short barreled Jaegers in the Colonies in the first half of the 18th century.

James Hanson in Firearms of the Fur Trade wrote:


I started looking for archaeological evidence found at Indian sites that might have uncovered some of these Jaeger barrels. Typical sources such T.M. Hamilton didn't turn up anything. I did some internet searching and found a useful document, THE FUR TRADE AND HISTORICAL ARCHAEOLOGY A BIBLIOGRAPHY, Complied by Michael A. Pfeiffer (copy attached).

Based on Hanson's comments about rifle use by Southern Indians, I scanned the bibliography for papers about sites in the South. I didn't find much. I knew the fur trade in the South was predominately the deer skin trade with some minor trade in fur bearing animals, but was surprised at the small amount of academic research directed towards it. T.M. Hamilton wrote about several collections in the South that he studied, but evidently these were mostly collections from amateur archaeologists. The professionals appear to focus on pre-contact sites and antebellum sites.

I read in Shumway's RCA Vol. 2, Chapter 18 about a rifle found at the Conestoga Town site not far from Lancaster, PA. This was the last town occupied by the Susquehannocks from near the end of the 17th century up to 1763 when the last of its inhabitants were killed by the Paxtang Boys. Shumway wrote that the archaeologists found
Note Shumway's bias concerning lengths of German barrels. At the time Shumway published the RCA books, Bob Lienemann hadn't uncovered the letters of Caspar Wistar showing he was importing in the 1730s rifles with barrels 39 and 40 inches long. This was an honest lack of knowledge on Shumway's part, but he made another error or typo in the quoted passage.

I had recalled reading in another book that the rifle barrel found at the Conestoga Town site was much shorter that the 41 inches that Shumway wrote. I racked my brain for several days trying to remember where I had read the contradictory description. I couldn't find it. In the end I gave up and ordered the book by Dr. Barry C. Kent that Shumway referenced. At the time Shumway was writing, it was an unpublished manuscript but has since been published by the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission.

Dr. Kent wrote in his book:


Finally, some evidence of a sub-36 inch barrel Jaeger at or before the F&I War!

I continued to look through my books on Kentucky rifles and came across this interesting rifle in James Johnston's Accouterments II.
View attachment 90274
View attachment 90275

Johnston believed this rifle was an Indian restock of a Jaeger rifle with a 24-inch barrel. Now we're talking...Or at least whispering.

Only two examples of Indian owned short-barrel Jaeger rifles is a little underwhelming considering all the Type G artifacts that have been found at archaeological sites and surviving whole Type G's.

Were the short-barrel Jaeger ever that common in North America? The evidence doesn't support the notion.

Is this the final nail in the coffin of the myth of the "transition rifle"?

excess650, I apologize if I misinterpreted your post. I agree "the longrifle was the product of mostly of German and Swiss immigrants." What doesn't seem to be supported by any evidence is the use of the term "evolved". The evidence indicates the the short-barrel Jaeger and the long-barrel Jaeger coexisted in the Germanic countries at the time those German and Swiss immigrants were coming to the colonies. The longer barreled German rifle might have been the preference in America from the get-go.

Epic post. Thank you.

 

[Artificer]

OK, here's another question about early rifles I've never seen discussed before and I have wondered about over the years.

Have we confused German Short Rifles, commonly called Jaegers today, as an evolutionary beginning of Long Rifles, RATHER than them being "Purpose Built" Rifles in Germany in the period?

One of the reasons I ask is because we have evidence Long Barreled Rifles were known and in use in Germany going back to at least to the 17th century. So it seems to me if they built rifles with short barrels, it was because it better suited different purposes.

IOW, were Short rifles the period equivalent of "Mountain" Rifles or "Back Up" Rifles as we know them today? For those hunting in very hilly or mountainous regions, a short rifle with a sling would have been very handy while climbing up and down hills or mountains. A shorter rifle would have been a good thing for a servant to carry to back up his Master hunting dangerous game. A shorter rifle seems to have been the ideal for a Forrester or Game Keeper to carry. (Caspar Wistar was known to have been an Apprentice Forrester under his Father before his Father lost that position. Would the rifle he carried in that position and the one it seems he brought with him when he immigrated to PA, perhaps have been a short rifle?)

English Gamekeeper Rifles seem to have been rather short rifles, weren't they?

Phil's post above about longer length barrels for Jaeger Rifles seems to back this up as well. So were there both short and long length Jaeger rifles, depending on the intended use of the rifle?

Gus

 

[excess650]

Where and how do some of you get access to view and sometimes handle these artifacts?

It helps to live in an area where there are local and regional shows, and belonging to an organization like the Kentucky Rifle Association enables a member to view and handle these at the annual meeting.

Some shows are by membership or invitation only, others are open to the public.

There is a small show, open to the public this weekend or at least Saturday at Harmony, Pa. There is another at Morgantown Pa mid-October. The show at Front Royal end of October is KRA, CLA, HOH, or invitation only. There are others, but these are some of what are coming up in the east.

 

[Artificer]

Something else we may not be thinking much about in the discussion of a transition rifle in the 18th century.

Surely they knew longer barrels with a longer sight radius (distance between the front and rear sight) made a longer barreled rifle more accurate to use, wouldn't they? Here I'm not talking so much about the mechanical accuracy of the rifle as much as it made the rifle easier to aim well and therefore more accurate in use.

So for those who made their living using a rifle, as in taking deer for their hides, or additionally for survival as a hunter, would have chosen the rifle that they could best aim and shoot well?

Gus

 

[ekettenburg]

If I recall correctly the Musician Rifle barrel length - off the top of my head - is on the shorter side, @ 35-36" or so. It's quite an interesting piece as it carries the 'double step' at the rear of the cheek as per many German arms and the BBR. The furnishings are all engraved similarly to the box, which has always raised a very interesting question: were they imports, or made and engraved here? The engraving is fantastic as is evident above, so if here, it very likely was someone trained in Germany. If imports, then where on earth are more of these boxes (brass boxes always believed to be an American innovation, mostly...). the only other box similar to this with similar complex latch of which I'm aware is a very early, very large unsigned piece attributed to George Shroyer and considered his earliest surviving work.

The lock is signed "J Heinnerich Fesler" although the J is only visible when the **** is at halfcock. It's almost certainly a German lock. It has a raised rain gutter around the pan cavity, a matching cavity on the underside of the frizzen and there is a drain cut through the pan fence to channel any water away from the gutter. Pretty fine work!

There are some American shorties here and there but not many. Of course there's the very controversial (controversy in attribution, not the rifle itself) "Albrecht" short rifle made by the same guy as RCA19. That's a stubby little barrel. Also I forget the number off the top of my head but there is a really stubby little gun in RCA 1, right near the beginning, that George called German but it's made with American wood and it has a twin. The carving is on the more simplistic side and I'm pretty convinced they're both American guns by an unknown maker. I forget the barrel lengths but they're REALLY short. I'll try to think of some others, I know I've seen one or two more.

 

[Brokennock]

It's almost certainly a German lock. It has a raised rain gutter around the pan cavity, a matching cavity on the underside of the frizzen and there is a drain cut through the pan fence to channel any water away from the gutter. Pretty fine work!

Any pictures available of this lock?
Especially the details you are describing?

Thanks.

 

[ekettenburg]

I don't have photos of the pan details I mentioned. You'll have to take my word for it

This a square on view of the lock, you can't really see the small raised lip, the underside of the frizzen or the small drain out the back of the fence. The "J" is hidden under the leading edge of the ****.

 

[ekettenburg]

BTW there was a Henrich Fesler that arrived here on the ship "Samuel" in 1733. I believe he's the only immigrant of that name that would fit the early dating of the rifle *if* the name on the lock is actually the name of the man who stocked the rifle, which is of course not known. I don't really see this particular lock as being earlier than the 1740s perhaps, and I think by the 1760s or early 1770s it might be a bit outdated if a German-made lock. A friend also found in records for the town of Wertheim (Germany) a record of a Heinrich Fesler "Buchsenmacher" involved in a dispute (not sure of the exact date) and I found some form of resident listing for Wertheim in 1705, and "Johann Heinrich Fesler" is listed as "Buchsenmacher." 1705 surely seems too early for this gun or this lock, but I have no idea how old that particular Fesler was in 1705.

 

[Brokennock]

I don't have photos of the pan details I mentioned. You'll have to take my word for it

This a square on view of the lock, you can't really see the small raised lip, the underside of the frizzen or the small drain out the back of the fence. The "J" is hidden under the leading edge of the ****.

View attachment 90441

Very interesting, thank you. Yes I would have liked pics of the details you described, not out of doubt but to better visualize proportion and location. But, it is still great to see a pic of such an old lock. Maybe it's just me, or the angle the pic is taken from, but the pan seems very thin from top to bottom of outside dimension. Like a thin metal shelf compared to something like today's large Siler lock.

 

[ekettenburg]

Some of it is probably photo angle. Don't get me started on the Siler pan! It needs a decent amount of reshaping to really look like an old American pan. It's far too thick and blocky.

 

[Brokennock]

Some of it is probably photo angle. Don't get me started on the Siler pan! It needs a decent amount of reshaping to really look like an old American pan. It's far too thick and blocky.

I've often though of taking a file to mine and reducing thickness and removing the facets to result in a thinner round bottom pan. But that is off our subject.

Closer to our subject, but still using some "modern" parts for comparison. Do we have any examples on early rifles at least restocked here, of what catalogs list as a Jaeger style set trigger? Where the rear "set" trigger is closer to horizontal. I have one on my TVM "Early" Virginia and I love it, but rarely see them used.

 

[ekettenburg]

BTW I forgot about this one, another short rifle, was auctioned last November through Morphy's. Interesting piece, clearly restocked here from a much earlier German gun. 30" barrel. I don't personally think it's crazy early but it's probably preWar or maybe back into the 1760s. Really don't think it's any earlier than that.

Lot Detail - (A) EARLY NEWLY DISCOVERED PRE-REVOLUTIONARY WAR AMERICAN FLINTLOCK JAEGER RIFLE.

Something that maybe has not been addressed - so say someone brings a gunstocker a wrecked gun from, say, the 1730s or 1740s, but now it's 20 or 30 years later. Customer wants the gun restocked using the original barrel, lock, furnishings etc. So how does it get restocked? Does the gunstocker try to restock 'out of fashion' components in a newer style, or does he try to restock it closer in style to the original gun, despite perhaps never having worked in that 'archaic' style? Hmmmmm. I think this one is an example of the latter approach, because it's (imho) kind of wonky and just has the gut feel (to me) of a later gun someone was trying to stock up in an earlier form to accommodate the hardware. Again, I don't mean later in terms of Federal era later, but I think the gunstocker was trying to look backwards by 20-30 years and maybe did not have much experience in stocking in that fashion so did the best he could with what he had to work with.