What Do You Think?

[Zonie]

I'm reading another account of the Lewis and Clark expedition and the author mentions the same information I've read before concerning the supplies Lewis ordered.

Among the items is 400 pounds of lead and 200 pounds of powder (stored in the lead containers).

I think most people will agree that the majority of the guns they took were .54 caliber along with a few smoothbores and fewer small caliber weapons.

Now, if I assume the .54's were the prime weapon, and a .535 dia ball weighs about 230 grains the 400 pounds of lead would make about 12,100 rounds.

If the powder weight was 1/2 of the lead weight, there would be enough powder to allow each load to be about 115 grains (which seems a bit on the heavy side even assuming the "best rifle powder" wasn't as good as modern powders.)

OK, so you ask what is my point?
Well, Lewis ordered only 100 flints.
Now it seems to me that something as light weight as a flint wouldn't be a problem to carry, and if only 100 flints were ordered do you think he was actually expecting each flint to be good for 120 shots?

That seems to be asking quite a bit even knowing that they re-knapped the flints as they wore.

What do you think?

 

[jimmy82]

They could have been counting on being able to find flint as they traveled. The 100 pieces would be a solid starting point and if they picked it up too as they went I'm sure they would have an ample amount of flint to see them through the trip.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

If I'm not mistaken, there were also a fair number of M1795 muskets there as well? Standard military ball for the US cartridge was .64 diameter (395 grains in weight) so they had to cast for those as well. Powder charge at the time, IIRC, was 110 grains, including priming.

 

[biliff]

And lets not forget the swivel gun. I'm sure that ate into the powder supply a bit.

 

[bingo1952]

I keep reading that the old powder wasn't as good as what we get today and granted some of it wasn't as good but some of it was at least as good and some better. I fired some 45-70 rounds 30+ years ago that were loaded with A4 and they were much hotter than modern smokeless loads. I dumped the powder from a couple and lit it off and also flashed off faster than the 2F DuPont I was shooting at the time. Nothing scientific about this experiment just my observations at the time. I sure wish I had those rounds back now.

 

[bob308]

i also read that they used the lead in the powder containers to make balls. also they had a air rifle with them.

 

[jlynn]

Sir-In my history class material that I accumulated over 38 yrs. I have a supply list that states 500 flints ordered. I just checked two web searches-one was the N.d. State historical society-and both had a list of supplies that stated 500 flints. Also the book from about 10 yrs ago -"Uncommon Valor" perhaps??? stated at the end of the journey,L and C had a LOT of powder and lead containers left. I am working here from memory but I hope this helps

 

[George Kevil]

Zonie,
I do believe that most riflemen and woodsmen knew how to knap flints. They could pick up chert or flint or other rocks along the way.
George

 

[Many Klatch]

I'd like to find out how they made their lead powder containers. That was the main reason that they had powder and lead. The lead containers and the amount of powder that they held were matched so that the lead and were enough to shoot. I would have liked to watch (from a distance) how they soldered a lead container full of gun powder shut. The containers were soldered shut so that the powder would stay dry even if the containers were dumped into the water.

Has anyone ever run across a picture or drawing of a Lewis and Clark lead powder container? I have enough lead that I could try to make one up.

Many Klatch

 

[bingo1952]

Don't know exactly how they did it but I would speculate that a double turn flange was used before any soldering commenced to isolate the powder as much as possible from the soldering process.

 

[boar]

Thers no way I would I would do that job. I say they made the kegs and put the powder in, Then put a wax seal in the hole they put the powder in. The kegs were likly molded. Dilly

 

[Eric Krewson]

I read "Undaunted Courage" by Steven Ambrose, very well written and kept my interest the whole time. In it he stated that most of their guns were 36 to 44 cal and they found them to be somewhat inadequate when facing the large game of the west, especially when that griz charged. If I remember correctly it took about a dozen shots from small caliber guns to finally kill it.

 

[mazo kid]

I tend to agree with Boar-dilly... I believe the containers were fabricated, by whatever means, and a hole left for the filling with powder. There could have even been a neck that could have a cover crimped over it and sealed with wax. Or...maybe a flask shaped container? All speculation, of course, but I sure don't think the containers would have been soldered shut after being filled with powder. Is there a record as to how many of the lead casks were taken on the trip? A quick calculation shows that IF they carried 20 cannisters, then there would be 20 pounds of lead and 10 pounds of powder in each for a manageable weight of 30 pounds each. Again, just thinking out loud. Emery

 

[Macmac]

to ALL: Interesting topic. I have no idea how you would solder a lead barrel like container with POWDER in it, but it might have been done just the same.

More or less in the day the soldering was done with a forge heated soldering iron made of a copper head sometimes weighing over 5 pounds.

A solder iron like that headed to red hot holds that heat a long time. I suspect a lead plate over a pluged hole, could be solderd and become 100% water tight.

I am quite sure you would not get ME to do that job ..

100 flints or 500 I can't say, but I don't believe the Corp thought they would be walking back either. Not the most of them anyway.

 

[bingo1952]

You can't solder with a "red hot" iron. The iron can't be tinned. Soldering heats for soft solder generally run from 450F to 700F. Both are above the ignition temperature of gun powder but with the flange double turned the chances were remote that any powder would come in contact with the hot iron. Seems like we are all doing a fair amount of speculation on this subject. Also they didn't have OSHA to tell them what was a safe work environment. :wink:

 

[Many Klatch]

I remember reading somewhere, wish I could remember where. Anyway, the author stated that the lead containers for Lewis and Clark were specially invented for the trip and that they were soldered shut.

Solder will stand up to a lot more abuse than wax. I am in the roofing trade and we have a couple of sheetmetal men that solder lead with irons just like in the old days. We do that when we custom make lead soil stacks for sloped roofs. I know the soldering can be done, and it doesn't take all that hot an iron. I was wondering if the container was cast and then a lid was soldered on.

As everyone should know, heat doesn't ignite blackpowder, only sparks or fire will. So the soldering while not considered safe by todays standards might not have been that dangerous by the standards of early 1800.

Many Klatch

 

[roundball]

"...heat doesn't ignite blackpowder, only sparks or fire will..."

I don't want to hijack this thread but I understand ignition differently:

"Heat" from shavings of steel that turn red hot from the friction of being sliced off the frizzen fall into the prime and is exactly what ignites the prime...there's no sparks or fire involved with that.

Similarly the invisible heat wave preceeding the edge of actual flame from the pan flash enters the touchhole and ignites the main...just like the invisible heat an inch or so above a candle flame will char your finger in no time.

Conversely, the static electricity experiment saved here on the MLF site shows photos of major arcs of visible light current flowing through the air into / through piles of blackpowder but since there's no heat, the powder does not ignite.

 

[roundball]

Sir-In my history class material that I accumulated over 38 yrs. I have a supply list that states 500 flints ordered. I just checked two web searches-one was the N.d. State historical society-and both had a list of supplies that stated 500 flints. Also the book from about 10 yrs ago -"Uncommon Valor" perhaps??? stated at the end of the journey,L and C had a LOT of powder and lead containers left. I am working here from memory but I hope this helps

The book "Undaunted Courage" lists the number 100 flints, but National Geo has a reference list that also say 500...and I'd think there research would be pretty good too.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lewisandclark/resources.html

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Ordered flints, from where? I would think flints would be readily available there in St. Louis, so maybe he purchased the bulk of them there,

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Lead is very malleable, could have just driven a lead/wood/iron/brass plug into hole and sealed with hot pitch.

Hole and plug alike could also have been taper threaded, this effects a very good seal.