What does the text of the 2nd Amendment really mean?

[musketman]

The United States Constitution, Amendment 2

A well-regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Our words to live (and die) by...
However, what does the text of the 2nd Amendment really mean?

"Without the 2nd Amendment , the 1st Amendment will fall."
The 2nd Amendment was placed as an insurense to protect the rest of our rights, every year, little by little, more of our "RIGHTS" are slipping away through our fingers.

From an "ABSTRACT VIEWPOINT" there is a slight flaw in the 2nd Amendment, by today's standards...

We have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms, NO WHERE DOES IT STATE THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR AMMUNITION!

When the 2nd Amendment was quilled, round balls and gun powder went without saying. It was part of the total firearm package.

By today's standard, this is a major loop-hole for the anti-gun people that could bring the gun industry to it's knees.

We could own all of the weapons we want, it wouldn't do us any good if ALL ammunition was outlawed.

Think about it.

 

[Ashelocoa]

We need only look to history and view the Second Amendment in context to wee what they meant. By the time of Lexington and Concord being stained with blood bayonets had been outlawed for some decades in private hands. Today that would be similar to our assault weapons/large capacity magazine ban. Bayonets were absolutely a must for victory on the battlefield as some Patriots learned at Bunker Hill some time later. The British were already moving to limit our ability to resist.
The British on April 19, 1775, were moving to secure cannon and the town magazine at Concord where a number of pieces of cannon had been relocated. Cannon and swivel guns were common fixtures on many towns for defense, and magazines were where powder lead and shot for the cannons were kept. Muskets for militia use were stored in either the magazine or in the town meeting house as they were in Lexington. Even then guns for defense and guns for private use were differentiated and dealt with separately--to remove our ability to resist at all they had to take our ammunition.
Then as today it is unfeasible to try to go around gathering guns, incremental legislation goes only so far, but ammo and guns have to come from somewhere hence the recent attacks on our gun industry and sooner or later ammunition.

One thing I have seldom heard about the Second Amendment language is the fact that it discusses "arms", not guns. "Arms" is a military term that is ageless. Then it meant bayoneted muskets, for the many scholars our Founding Fathers read from it meant swords and steel-pointed spears, and today it means M-16, M-14, AK-47, or whatever our military will concoct tomorrow. Just a thought!

Another argument that is leveled against us is that weapons have changed considerably well beyond their foresight. At that time they had in-line flintlocks, revolving barrel flintlocks, exploding ordnance were invented, rockets, rifling was perfected, breech loading flintlocks of both the Ferguson type and tip up breech type, and percussion before many of them died and they never changed their minds on how far the right was guaranteed.

 

[crackerboy]

I've read that the FOUNDING FATHER'S had a thing against large standing armies too! TO me a goverment that fears it's citizen's being armed is not too be trusted, and a goverment is nothing more than a group of people.In this country's case, it's certain people with ulterior motives!!

 

[Rancocas]

I am so sick of discussions of this topic!
Read the Federalist Papers. Read the Anti-Federalist Papers. "The People" as mentioned in the 2nd Amendment means exactly the same thing as "The People" means in the 1st, 4th, and the 9th Amendments. "Arms" means all the common infantry weapons, and ammunition, of the day. The day means now.
Frankly, I am tired of the retoric and endless battles in the courts and legislatures. There will be no end to it until either we lose our natural rights, or we tar and feather a few key politicians, and anti-gun activists.
However, it is unfortunate, but I believe that even tar and feathers would not be enough. This nation has become like a bad marriage. There are irreconcilible differences, and the only solution is a divorce. I believe it is time for a divorce - or as Walter Williams and some other columnists have suggested - secession.

Sorry, but this topic really makes my blood boil. Where oh where are the Jefferson Davis' and Robert E. Lee's of today. Maybe Ron Paul, and Tom Tancredo?
OK, rant over. I usually avoid these discussions because I believe that further talk is useless, but this is my first comment on this topic on this forum. I'll try to stay out of it from now on.

Do a search for, and read about the Free State Project. I think the basic concept is a good one. However, there are more than just a few loose cannons who have been attracted to this idea, and they will have to be closely monitored.
You might also check out The League of The South, and The Counsel of Conservative Citizens.

I'm not advocating any of the above, just putting out food for thought.

 

[Claude Mathis]

quote:Originally posted by Rancocas:
"The People" as mentioned in the 2nd Amendment means exactly the same thing as "The People" means in the 1st, 4th, and the 9th Amendments. "Arms" means all the common infantry weapons, and ammunition, of the day. The above statement is the definitive answer. There need not be any further discussion on the intent and meaning of the amendment, except among those trying to take guns away from "the people".

The courts have even backed this up lately, but people are still trying to force a misinterpretation of the amendment.

 

[Ashelocoa]

PLEEEEAAAASE don't be exasperated or angry when it comes to gun control. The gun grabbers want us to run down to the point of imploding. This can be a frustrating topic sometimes but bear in mind that MANY have no clue about firearms at all. We have now is many cases two generations of folks that do not hunt or shoot and therefore pursue nothing on the topic, including the Constitutional background of the Second Amendment. We have an educational system that does not teach US history or civics, we have Social Studies now that bemoan America and make apoligies for the violent spread of Islam through the ages(I've heard these myself, these schools are nothing like they were 30 years ago, or 20 for that matter). You've made some good arguments hear, and people should hear those, so now I will share my experiences with this.

I have a BA in Political Science and was never asked or required to read the Federalist papers, the Constitution was available in one course but not required to be read, and the Founding FAther's writings were never covered or referenced. And I went to a conservative school, now imagine the ciriculum at Yale, UCLA, or any state university.

While there my roommate and I liked to shoot and between un had a managerie of firearms from WWI rifles and pistols to shotguns, .22's, and a muzzleloader. We shot frequently and invited others to go but no one ever came with us. They seemed to always have an art final or the sudden urge to study whenever we headed to the range. Then one computer geek went with us.(With every person that went with us we spent the 30 minute drive there covering gun safety and some time when we arrived practicing what we learned before a shot was aver fired) He was hooked, from then on he kept a shopping bag filled with ammo just in case, that way we could go straight to the range wihtout an ammo stop. Then more came, before a year was out we had at one point five carloads of people that would go with us to shoot, we even organized a few clay shooting tournements. I've been out of school for some almost six years now but when I visit I still get people asking me when we're going to the range next. We changed people's minds. Period.

My wife was liberal, at one point a vegan and could never stand the thought of an animal dieing, no matter what from! And guns? Yeah right! She now loves .22's, has loaded and fired her .32 squirral rifle with no help from yours truly, and now is even talking about turkey hunting. She's a devoted Christian and is even parting ways from all that liberal thinking.

There's more I could say but this is long enough. Patience is a virtue that is necessary to combat the ignorance about our rights. This nation fougt one bloody war that scored a death toll of one SEptember 11 a week for four years over its nationhood, let's not let that go to waste because of a few setbacks in our educational system.

http://getthenews.net/911/
Check this out, it's not muzzleloading but it sure is nice!

 

[Rancocas]

PLEEEEAAAASE don't be exasperated or angry when it comes to gun control. The gun grabbers want us to run down to the point of imploding. This can be a frustrating topic sometimes but bear in mind that MANY have no clue about firearms at all. We have now is many cases two generations of folks that do not hunt or shoot and therefore pursue nothing on the topic, including the Constitutional background of the Second Amendment. We have an educational system that does not teach US history or civics, we have Social Studies now that bemoan America and make apoligies for the violent spread of Islam through the ages(I've heard these myself, these schools are nothing like they were 30 years ago, or 20 for that matter). You've made some good arguments hear, and people should hear those, so now I will share my experiences with this.
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It is not just the attacks on our 2nd Admendment, and the teaching, or lack thereof, from liberal academia that cause my frustration and disgust.
The United States of America, where I was born and raised, the land that I have fought for, the land where I raised my own family - it has ceased to exist. I feel that I have been abandoned by my country, and I am angry about it.
Perhaps those who "have no clue", should get one! But, I have found that the majority have chosen sides and will not switch.

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Patience is a virtue that is necessary to combat the ignorance about our rights. This nation fougt one bloody war that scored a death toll of one SEptember 11 a week for four years over its nationhood, let's not let that go to waste because of a few setbacks in our educational system.
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No more. I fought the political battles, attended rallies, did protest marches, support the NRA and several other pro-2nd Admendment orginazations; all of that, for many years. It did not help.

Read again what I said about irreconcilible differences.

I'm a Vietnam veteran. I know a little about how terrible war is. However, I think it is time to give serious thought to the words of Thomas Jefferson.

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."
Declaration of Independence

"... and what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that the people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardom and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ..."
Thomas Jefferson;
in a letter to William
Stephens Smith, dated
Nov. 13, 1787

Irreconcilable differences;

Irreconcilable; Not reconcilable; implacable;
incompatible
Different; Of various or contrary nature,
form, or quality; Distinct;
Seperate; Not the same

All the talk in the world will not sway the true believers from either side.
Those of you who want to continue the talk; well go right ahead, and with my blessing. But, in my opinion, you're just spinning your wheels.
I'm all talked out.

I'm finished with this.

 

The right and RESPONSIBILITY of the people to keep and bear arms goes back to the Anglo-Saxon Fyrd. It is a product of our Anglo-Saxon heritage, even if we are Anglo-Saxon by adoption.
Sadly, this right and responsibility is now quite dead in the Island which spawned it.

The real serpent in the garden here is the indefensible arguments against the doctrine of "original intent", the readiness of the liberal courts to legislate from the bench, and the peculiar medical condition exhibited by many politicians in America these days known as
ATA or "Acute Testicular Atrophy" when it comes to standing up for what is right, for the Constitution, for our rights, for American citizens, and for America, against the forces of political correctness and the insatiable enmity of the major media organs.

 

[Ashelocoa]

I never give up!

Ever....I believe Winston Churchill had something to say on that topic.

You say you've been in organizations and it did nothing? Those organizations are the only reason we have any rights left, they are out there every day lobbying and fighting for us. I recommend to anyone that they try time adn again becuase I've seen it work. Has no one here changed people's mind/lives by exposing them to the truth?

So you lose a few battles here and there, so what? Name a war where the U.S. didn't lose some lives and have some setbacks. Even the two most recent wars in the Gulf were not flawless; specatacular yes, flawless no. Quoting facts is great and a must, but people are in general bored with facts, and as infuriating as that may be try coupling facts with objects and activities that help dispell myths and you will see a new person emerge. But...

Not all will turn, sadly, but this is always the case. When the first shots were fired at Lexington Green no more than perhaps 3% of the colonists thought that a good idea, and no more tha 2/3 the population by war's end. That was supposedly a very righteous event for us and yet we hardly had a resounding majority behind it. Similar numbers play for later wars, with the most recent, strangely enough, having the highest approval rating prior to and up through the declared end of it. Yes it was more popular than the Revolution and WWII. Go figure...

One last thing, suppose some event were to trigger another civil war here. Just how long till another power invades and we will be too disunited to stop it? China, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, would all take a bite, and who would stop them? England, Isreal, NATO? Canada?(snicker) Does anyone really believe the world on a whole would do anything other that sit back and watch while a bunch of disunited bands of Americans with shotguns and deer rifles(and a few muzzleloaders) try to repel a modern army? I imagine a more inspired future for this country and because of that I will keep changing minds. Educate, demonstrate, participate, these are the steps to winning those that can be won. Let the rest grow old stewing over their defeat at the hands of righteous, patient, determined.

Ashelocoa

FYI For those that think China is armed only with SKS's and AK's, they are using 21st century bullpup assault rifles as the standard issue weapon, have ICBM's, have technology comparable to ours and on a rapidly growing scale, control both ports of the Panama canal, can field a 200 million man army if pressed(that's no s**t), and just put a man in space.
They shouldn't be regarded lightly...

 

We may be going too far afield here, but not only are the Red Chinese doing everything you pointed out, but they are also beating us economically. Go to any store, check out where the products are produced. Our industrial base is eroded by the movement of production capacity overseas, partcularly to countries like Red China. Also, our merhcant marine has been so reduced that 19% of the war material shipped out in Persian Gulf II was carried in foreign shipping.