What era?

[colmoultrie]

Hee is a trade gun that I wangled away from ChuckPA after coveting it for years. I tried to get "Sweet William" Douglas to build me one too, but after awhile he returned my deposit and said he didn't have the time to build any more, so I had to wait for Chuck to build himself a really nice NW trade gun. I know trade guns were built for almost two centuries, but I wonder about the closest time period on this...

 

[Bountyhunter]

What is the barrel length on this gun? It appears to be short,--30"?

I think it is a Tulle Fusil-de-Chasse pattern from the stock, which was introduced in this country about 1670. They, however, were standard with about 42" barrels.

My books hint that this pattern is maybe 1725ish?

Nice piece of wood in that stock there.

 

[Russianblood]

It has several styles in it. A French shaped, American wood stock with an Eglish/American Northwest Trade Gun sideplate all in a "canoe gun" length gun.

I can see why you wanted it so bad. It is beautiful! I have a Jackie Brown "canoe gun" in a walnut stock and I love it.

 

[Java Man]

I think you are going to need to put some real time into the story behind that one.

Stock looks French in shape. So should have walnut stock and 46"+ barrel.

The rest looks like a NW Trade Gun.

Its a very nice looking gun. :thumbsup:

 

[tg]

As stated above it is a mixed blood, I would call it a late 18th century restock of a 1765-70 English gun with French architecture, barrel must have been damaged so it was shortened? it does take a story to place it anywhere in real time though it is a nice looking gun.

 

[Henry]

Same comment as TG , the smart name is a " composite gun " , it could be as old as the latest part , I would say the side plate and
the trigger guard ( 1770 -1790 )
or a bit later if it is rifled .

 

[Okwaho]

As stated above it is a mixed blood, I would call it a late 18th century restock of a 1765-70 English gun with French architecture, barrel must have been damaged so it was shortened? it does take a story to place it anywhere in real time though it is a nice looking gun.

I agree with tg here except that the butt architecture looks almost as much English as French.I can't see the buttpiece but it is probably French since the NW guns and the Carolina guns had simple butt pieces which were nailed on and this one shows signs of being thicker and held on with screws.The guard looks like a NW guard with a screw just ahead of the bow which also goes upward to serve as a tang screw,an English characteristic.The barrel is probably English with a short octagonal section at the breech which is known on early NW guns.The sideplate is definitely English and if it is round faced with cast brass scales the period would be post Ca.1751 and later into the late 18th and early 19th century.The lack of a rear ferrule is typical of NW guns of the 18th and 19th centuries.Going back to the butt architecture,there is some similarity between this gun and the French Pied de vache style Fusil de chasse but there are some English guns with similar architecture.One of these is shown in "Trade Guns Of The Hudson's Bay Company 1670-1970" by S.James Gooding,PP.54-57 which has the butt configuration expected from a 1750's-60's gun which is when the gun was restocked.

By the way,as to the Pied de vache butt architecture generally found on of French Fusils de chasse {but not normally on the fusils fin},I can find no evidence of this butt style prior to Ca.1696 and would greatly appreciate seeing some solid pictoral documentation to the contrary.Nor can I find any documentation for the statement that 42" barrels were standard on these French Fusils de chasse or Fusils fin de chasse.
Tom Patton

 

[hawk]

the stock is a little like the "wilson" that caywood makes isn't it English?

 

[Cruzatte]

Yeah, Caywood's Wilson gun is English. See T.M. Hamilton's "Colonial Frontier Guns" p. 73 and pp. 78-9

The Caywood gun's barrel however is too short, and it should be stocked in either English or at least Eruopean walnut (if there's any difference).
Cruzatte

 

[tg]

Tom, I was refering to the English guns with French styled buttstocks when I posted above,as I stated on another forum I think these may fall in time betwwen the Early Carolina style archit. and that of the later NW gun. I have never seen anything to suggest 42" as being proper. all of the contract listing Beauchard mentions are around 44"

 

[Okwaho]

Tom, I was refering to the English guns with French styled buttstocks when I posted above,as I stated on another forum I think these may fall in time betwwen the Early Carolina style archit. and that of the later NW gun. I have never seen anything to suggest 42" as being proper. all of the contract listing Beauchard mentions are around 44"

Gene,sorry about that I was referring to a post by bountyhunter as to the "standard 42 in. barrel not you.
Tom Patton

 

[Henry]

Oh , and by the way , the old french documents
mentioned the lenght in " french inches "

The french " pied " ( foot ) is almost 13 "
long and the 12 " pouces " ( inches ") are divided
in 12 " lignes " ( lines ) further divided in 12 " points " ( dots )

So an early 1700 "42 pouces " barrel may be
48 inches long

 

[Okwaho]

Henry,you are,of course,correct in that the ratio between English and old French feet is 16/15 with a Pied being 12.8 English inches. Unfortunately all I have to go on is the English translation of the Montreal merchants records and other material mostly in English.I questioned the statement by bountyhunter that there was a standard barrel measurement for Fusils de chasse of 42 [English ?] inches.The Tulle guns had varying barrel lengths depending on the contract at the time with the Ministry de la marine prior to 1741 when it's exclusive contractual relationship with the Ministry de la marine ceased.Other makers such as Maubege,Charleville,St. Etienne and others manufactured guns according to the requirements of the buyers so that barrel lengths could vary considerably.Thanks for pointing out the difference between English and old French measurements which extended to units of measurement other than gun barrels.
Tom Patton

 

[tg]

I wonder if Beuchard translated the measurements as well as the text in his book on the "Tulle in New France" when describing the specs of the contracts?

 

[Henry]

Quick revew of the commercial system :

There are contracts and orders with the Tulle factory

Contract , or agrement ( funny , same words in both french and english ) is a notarised document
with all the specs of the gun ,method of delivery and payment , and price .
Order is ... well an order " same as last contract "

There were 17 contracts from 1691 to 1741 ,
barrel lenght varied from 49 to 42 inches ( anglo/us ) at different periods .
Generally going shorter with time , with the
esception of a few contract were they asked for longer ones , following fashion of the time period. Specs of one contract was maintained
as long as a new contract was not sealed .

Of course , St Étienne had their own contracts and order . Plus a few times were one compagny bought parts fron the other to fill an order .

Conclusion : no fixed barrel lenght , at least not for very long period .