What Happen?

[glenn mcmurray]

This was my first year for hunting with a traditional muzzel loader. I'm shooting a T/C Seneca .45 cal, with a .440 ball and .10 patch. T/C recommends a max load of 90 grn of 2ff. My load is 70 grns of 3fff. I had a nice fat does come by at 17yrd. She was close to broadside with just a slight quartering towards me. This is a shot I prefer with bigger rifles,breaks the leg and puts them down with a double lung or heart shot. This time it didn't work out that way. At the shot the doe ran to about 60 yards and stood behind a brush pile. I watched her while I reloaded. I could see the red around her mouth so I thought I had a good shot. After close to 10 minutes she stepped from behind the brush. I put another round behind her shoulder and she dropped like a rock. I went ahead and reloaded and approached her. When I got about 15 yrds away she jumped up and ran off. I trailed her for about 200 yards before I spotted her. She was walking, with her head down, obviously hurting. I got up to about 10 yards and broke her neck. When I field dressed her the first ball hit the front leg, not the bone, deflected back and nicked the lung. It then traveled through the diaphram and into the stomach. The second went in just behind the shoulder, no bone, deflected off a rib and shot down and forward, missing all the vitals.
My long winded question is what happen. Either one of those shots should have killed that deer within seconds. Glenn

 

[jtmattison]

The first thing that comes to mind is whether or not the balls expanded. Are your roundballs made of pure lead? Did they mushroom at all? It sounds like either one of those shots should have done the job. Something odd is at play here.

HD

 

[Wildpony]

Sounds like it was the consequence of a light for caliber projectile, having to first penetrate a more hevily muscled area followed by needing to penetrate more dense bone prior to entering the vital cavity.

From the sound of it you were getting just enough penetration to cause dammage to the lung on the shot side, but not enough to penetrate and puncture both lungs. A deer can travel a long way just on one lung.

A similar thing happened to a hunter I guided this season. He was shooting a light caliber centerfire and hit just rearward of the heart getting only a clean pass through the rear of both lungs. The projectile neither made a large enough hole to allow enough blood to quickly pool in the lungs, nor enough shock to the nervous system to incapacitate the animal for long enough time required for expiration. We ended up tracking that animal for over a half a mile just by following barely visible drops of blood step by step. We found the animal 2.5 hours later; it having long expired and riggered. Just happened to be in a briar thicket on the side of a hill too. Extracting the carcas was a whole lot of fun.

I guess the lesson is that even in the face of the best laid plans, Murphy sometimes steps in when we least expect it. The only thing we can do is try our best to give him as few opportunities to rear his ugly little head as possible.

Really thogh, my experience hunting with muzzleloaders being restricted to a .58 cal shooting conicals, I think what happened to you was extreemly rare.

You did a good job by sticking with the animal as long as you did to ensure that she didn't suffer unduly.

 

[BrownBear]

That second shot really has me going. I think it would be rare, but I could imagine a ball glancing off a leg bone if it hit just right, and as close as you were it would have to be JUST right. But the second one is a ponderer. Ball hardness is a good question, but I can't see where that would cause a veer on the second shot.

May have just been two wierd shots on the same deer, and you'll never see anything like it again. I never take shoulder shots so I wouldn't know on the first. But I've ventilated enough lungs with a big range of calibers over the years and never seen anything like that. Deer ribs are just too puny to cause that much of a turn, from what I know.

Lots of folks here are really successful with 45, so I'm not going to blame the caliber even if I haven't used one that small on deer.

 

[jdixon]

What kind of powder were you using?

What you describe is a projectile that didn’t have enough energy to do the job. In theory there should be sufficient energy at the range you described for a quick kill with that load and calibre. The Seneca is throwing your round ball down range at probably close to 2000 FPS with your load, that ought to have done it. Makes me wonder if your powder was up to snuff.

My opinion, the 127 grain .44 round ball is too small for whitetail hunting out of a muzzleloader. Will they work, yes, but the margin for error, i..e. like what happened to you, is far greater than it would be if you stepped up to a .50 ball which is 50 grains heavier.

Since that Seneca has a 1:48 R/H twist in it, why not move up to a Maxi Ball or a Buffalo Ball-et bullet for hunting? These will run 240 grains plus in weight and will carry more authority down range.

Found these stats on the Seneca for you on another web sight. These should give you an idea of what your energy is with some common loads:

“Below are Thompson/Center Arms' suggested loads from a paper publication of theirs, printed in October of 1980. I accept no responsibility or liability for the accuracy (or lack thereof) of the following load information. All of these loads specify no. 11 caps or T/C flints. Round ball loads specify T/C patch material lubricated with T/C no. 13. Maxi-ball loads specify the use of Maxi-Lub as a lubricant. FPS = feet per second at muzzle. Ft-lbs = foot-pounds of energy at muzzle. Grains listed after projectile type represent bullet weight.

Seneca, 45 caliber
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1584 FPS - 707 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1701 FPS - 816 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1800 FPS - 914 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1904 FPS - 1022 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1980 FPS - 1106 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1369 FPS - 915 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1456 FPS - 1036 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1541 FPS - 1160 ft.lbs”

 

[glenn mcmurray]

I'm getting some very good informatin here. I was shooting a Hornady ball, I assume soft enough to expand and I'm shooting 777 in 3f size. I downsized the load to 70 grains to allow for the different pressure of 3f compared to 2f.
On the ride home that day my first thought was to try a conical bullet for the extra weight and leave the patch ball for practice and my .36 and .32. Glenn

 

[Mountainman56]

It may be one of those questions that is never answered. At first it sounds like not enough energy but your load information negates that. The modern consensus seems to lean toward a .45 as being somewhat light for deer hunting and today I agree with that to a point however I shot many a deer with a .45 way back when. That being said at the distances you were shooting a .45 should have done the job with no problem.

Sometimes s#!t just happens.

 

[Osprey]

Don't know how to explain it, but it isn't the ball/load combo. I shot two whitetails with a .440 ball and 60 grains of FFF this year, 50 and 80 yards, both deer the ball broke the near leg bone, passed through ribs and vitals and lodged under the far side skin. Certainly enough power and whomp, guess sometimes things just happen.

 

[jdixon]

I don't fool around wit the substitute sutff much, but you said you were using T7. I have seen information about the substitues breaking down over time, especially when exposed to moisture. If this is correct, is it possible your T7 was tainted?

 

[paulvallandigham]

You should have been getting close to 1700 fps with that load out of your gun. The only thing I can think of was that the ball may have been spinning too fast because of that velocity, so that it turned. It only weighs 127 grains, which may not be enough mass to allow it to rotate that fast and still stay on the same path once it hits flesh, or differentiated flesh, bone, cartilage, etc. Larger caliber balls do seem to hold thier Line of travel better.

I am as surprised at the performance of your RB as you are, as I shot a 45. for several years. I was using 55 grains of FFFg powder in my gun, however, which gave me about 1500 fps.

When I bought a new gun, I chose the .50 caliber because of its better proven performance on deer, and the fact that it would let me take shots at a longer range. I think the most popular selling caliber today is the .54. I did have the kind of " ricochette " occur like yours, with my .50 on one wild boar I shot. I decided to NOT recommend the .50 RB to other hunters for wild boar, for that reason. The range was a couple of yards at most, but the ball turned, and went in another direction. The only thing I could speculate about was that the ball was spinning too fast at that close range, so that when it hit a leg bone, it was off in another direction.

The main thing here is that you followed through, shot the deer, and finally killed her and brought her to bag. Congratulations. Any deer killed with a MLer is a trophy. :hatsoff:

 

[Stumpkiller]

She was close to broadside with just a slight quartering towards me. This is a shot I prefer with bigger rifles,breaks the leg and puts them down with a double lung or heart shot.

Think of a .45 w/round ball as an arrow and not a high-power rifle. Avoid bone. I even treat my .54 as if it was an arrow and try for double lung with only ribs if at all possible.

Never owned a .45 so I can't relate deer stories but it seems unless you are getting pressure loss from patch blow-by or worn nipple you should have had better results. Do you have access to a chronograph? Do you get a "krack!" when you shoot and not a "poom" or "blam"?

 

[Britsmoothy]

To many deer have fallen to the .45 ball in the past. No way have the deer changed.PaulV has it I think, there is a very good reason why that ball should only be turning once every 60 odd inches!
You asked "what happened", well I think you had a fantastic hunt and followed up perfectly. It must of been very exciting. Some times things just happen this way. A compromise twist may compromise in more ways than we want!

 

[cptleo1]

"She was close to broadside with just a slight quartering towards me. This is a shot I prefer with bigger rifles,breaks the leg and puts them down with a double lung or heart shot. This time it didn't work out that way".


"The second went in just behind the shoulder, no bone, deflected off a rib and shot down and forward, missing all the vitals."

Two things come to mind here:

The quartering toward shot is usually a low percentage shot with a bow or low power ML.

It works with centerfires because of the shock power of modern rifles and bullets. It will also work with heavier ML PRB or bullets. In general it is a shot I try and avoid cuz if you wait a few seconds more she probably would have presented a better angle. A deers anatomy as far as the bones and such is a little strange from that angle and a little patience might have worked out for you.

I think the .45 will kill a deer stone dead but you should try and pick your best oppertunity, if that does not happen , the deer won the day and there is nothing wrong with that.

As far as puting the ball behind the shoulder and missing everything this I might take exception to.

A deers lungs lay up agianst their ribs just like ours.

The lungs protrude behind the shoulder almost to the end or the ribs. If you hit a rib you almost certianly hit the lung behind it.

The trick to quick and certian kills is to get BOTH lungs - this is why the true broadisde shot is prefered - they won't go very far then.

Same deal with the heart, it lays low behind the shoulder just behind the elbow.

If you hit her low behind the shoulder you should have caught a piece of it, even if the ball deflected downward.

Someone else mentioned that a PRB is a lot like an arrow with no broadhead on it and this is very true. You poke holes with a PRB there is little actual shock damage. That hole results in a dead critter, sometimes it just takes a few minutes for them to expire.

The main thing I dislike about the BRP is the blood trails are often slight to almost non-existant.

The PRB has an amazing habit of stopping just under the skin on the far side of the animal why it does that I don't really know. If it would just go another inch or two the critters would leak from two holes rather than one and that would be a good thing.

I am proud of your stick to itivness about finishing the deal with your doe. I would think you just had a bit of bad luck and an inch one way or another would have made a huge difference.

That being said, there is a bunch of time before next season and if your budget will allow it I would try and get yourself a .54. I feel the .54 is the best combination of power, ball weight and recoil and is truly a superior hunting calber.

I am always on the prowl for the pefect hunting rifle

I didn't get a chance to use it yet but I put together a little .62 caliber cherry stocked canoe gun with sights !! It is way cool and should be a real thumper. I think I have like $400 in it.

Good luck, don't get discouraged.

There are are some really good people here, with tons of knowledge taht are glad to share.

Agian GOOD JOB and good luck !

 

[Dave K]

This is why I have had guides tell me not to go for breaking down a leg or shoulder. Take out the boiler room and it is going down. I am not going to say that a bigger cal. wouldn't have worked in this situation, but if you place a 32cal. in the boiler room, it is going down.

Ok, I have my fire suit as others tell me breaking down a shoulder works for them.

 

[mobasscat]

1 turn in 48" is just that and it don't matter what the velocity is.

 

[Flintlock58]

I agree with gas blow by as the problem. My 58 flinter did some weird things this season. Turned out the vent was burnt open and I was having gases blow out the vent. Replaced the vent with a Jim Chambers stainless and the problem went entirely away. Also had this happen on a 54 percussion and a nipple change cured the problem there. It may be worth a try!

 

[Sherlock]

The real clues to the problem are the first two shots. You say the first at 17 yards hit no bone but deflected... and the second hit a rib and deflected. NO POWER! NO DOUBT! The power comes from the kind and amount of the powder. Wonky

 

[ratgunner]

I'm sure these same things happened to our forefathers while hunting.

 

[bob4st]

...Ok now everybody sit down... remember the K.I.S.S. Theory?.. Yeah, "Keep It Simple Stupi..", er, I mean "Silly"... This really is simple to explain... The first and last question you should be askin is: "Was the meat tuff?"... tuff meat = tuff deer... tuff deer = tuff to kill... Now ain't ya'll glad I helped.. :blah: ..?
Bob

 

[Catof9tails]

I don't shoot a 45, but sometimes those things happen. If I was in your place at the time, I would have gave the deer at least a 20 to 30 minute wait before I approached where it layed.
Cat9