What Happened to CLOSER?

[Loyalist Dave]

So the "newest" thing out for the moderns is going after turkey with a .410 and using almost an ounce and a half of tungsten shot. The idea is you reduce the diameter of the shot column, you reduce the size of the pellets to #9 and use tungsten, and you apply a very tight choke while launching that 1 and 13/16ths of shot. This is supposed to give you enough pellets at the center of the pattern with enough umph to harvest the turkey, no worries.

Well at $6 a shell, it better clean and pluck the dang turkey too (imho).

Why is this here on this forum?

Because some of our fellow ML hunters are having to use tungsten instead of lead for round ball, and tungsten shot in #7 and #9 is now out there and probably soon to be available in loose form, if not already. Which means that folks using muzzleloaders will likely stray into use of the stuff too, whether by regulations or just to get more pellets. Though again at the present time the prohibitive cost of the stuff might dampen enthusiasm for experimentation.

All of this is to reach 40 yards. So some of our muzzleloading kin will likely try this in a 28 gauge...a smooth bored .54/.55 if not something larger.

So after hearing about this new stuff, I patterned a 20 gauge trade gun two weeks ago using 2 ounces of shot and a light load of 55 grains of 2Fg. The effort was to see the pattern with a relatively low power load, because..., if it didn't pattern well at that load, then increasing the powder wouldn't really improve the pattern, just the impact of the shot. Also because that much shot was not something I normally used, but I've read and seen videos of folks using that much shot in a 20 gauge, cylinder bore gun. I used #4 shot.

At 33 yards the pattern wasn't good enough for turkey..wasn't good enough for squirrels either. (33 yards as the yahoo who positioned the pattern board at the range just eyeballed it, thinking it at 25 yards )

So I tried my load 1.25 ounces #4 with 80 grains of powder, and as I was only with my son, I advance until I was at 25 yards...WOW so the pattern was much better and would work for turkey (and I've tried it on squirrels already, with success) .

Not to mention the shot is plain old #4 lead. Now I admit, since I didn't use tungsten, it's not a very good comparison, as I don't know if that makes a difference in flight from my gun. So I'm NOT knocking the tungsten shot for performance.

I'm knocking the train-of-thought that one has to be farther from the turkey and push the safe limits of the gun, to get the results, while using decoys and calls, and at the same time the hunter is dressed in some sort of bush-wooky outfit that would make a modern military sniper proud.

I'm not very experienced in harvesting Jake turkeys, so I may be full of beans. This year I will be going for them hard, in the Spring season. So I wonder, is it that tough to get them into range when your range is 25 yards?


LD

 

[hinamanra]

Nope. Most of the Gobblers that I killed were within 15 yards quite a few at 10. I quit using decoys 10 years ago, they're just more gear to carry. They key is absolutely no movement and have everything ready to shoot before you are in his view. The last 6 Gobblers I killed were with My FDC 20 bore no choke. 3 with my long bow and 1 with my compound. I don't have any experience killing Jakes either only long beards.

 

[Carbon 6]

$6 a shell

I'm just going to stutter for few minutes then mutter some expletives.

a .410 and using almost an ounce and a half of tungsten shot.

Gee, tungsten must weigh about twice what lead does.

(More muttering to myself)

 

[Walkingeagle]

So I wonder, is it that tough to get them into range when your range is 25 yards?
LD

The supermarket has them lots closer than that. But they really frown upon all the noise and powder smoke after the shot!!
Walk

 

[Carbon 6]

 

[Britsmoothy]

I think these ammunition makers are pandering to fear! Hunters fear having a bird just not being close enough and where a rifle would cover it they are however restricted to shotguns.
Many guys and girls don't have the time or desire to do the ground work first too.
So anything made that appeals to giving a hunter the "edge" will ultimately make someone a profit.
Oh and Dave....you should of used more powder but 3f

 

[Britsmoothy]

Stupid phone.....

 

[Carbon 6]

I think these ammunition makers are pandering to fear! Hunters fear having a bird just not being close enough and where a rifle would cover it they are however restricted to shotguns.

Nah, you see by da time these "hunters" today come out of da Bass-pro or da Cabela's, dey are so laiden wit all da new gear and such dat 40 yards is as close as they can get to a turkey wit out soundin like a one man band falling down da stairs.

 

[Ames]

$6 a shell? Farm raised turkey bought around the holiday season goes 40 cents a lb. That's $8 for a 20 pounder plucked and frozen. And the kids cant tell the difference.
I buy 8 -10 a year, load the freezer, and stick to deer hunting. $6 a shell.

 

[Tumbledown]

Sounds like a result of California's lead ban.

 

[No Deer]

With my 20 ga. cylinder bore, flintlock tradegun, I have taken many turkeys. I use 75 gr. 3f, 1 1/8 oz. #5 lead shot. Every one has been taken within 25 yards, most at less than 20 yards. I hunt turkey from a popup blind, sometimes with a decoy, often without. I watch where the turkeys travel and then set up there. I call for a bit every 20 minutes or so, unless I have a hot one responding, then maybe a bit more often. It can be maddening waiting for the turkey to get within range, ie. <25 yards, but they mostly do.... eventually.
I think that most of the modern shooters don't have the patience to wait for the turkey to get that close. They spend big money to get the shotguns and magnum rounds that will shoot a turkey out to 60 yards, so they are going to make use of it. It also almost sounds like it is a macho thing that they can brag about, the longer the shot the more they can brag.

 

[Ames]

I thinks is a better brag to see how close you can get. I've had a flock of them walk past at 3 yards while deer hunting, just sitting against a tree.

 

[nkbj]

Closer? Out around Gunsight, Texas I once crawled around in a washed out stream bed with a way long Kentucky rifle for the better part of an hour to put the sneak on a herd of turkeys. I eased up that bank and peaked over the edge and there they was. Took careful neck bead on the closest one, squeezed off and POP! (uh, wait for it) BOOM!
Man there was turkeys in the air like a covey of quail but not one on the ground. But after the fact, after a few bad words and a long pull on a bottle back around the fire I was a happy guy because by golly I did put some serious sneak on them.

 

[user 31257]

The .410 TSS loads I’ve seen use 13/16th ounce of shot, not almost an ounce and a half. People use them to turn a tiny .410 into a legit turkey gun, not to extend their range. It also makes the .410 usable for kids. Can you post a link to the shells with that much shot in them?

 

[ppg1949]

Nah, you see by da time these "hunters" today come out of da Bass-pro or da Cabela's, dey are so laiden wit all da new gear and such dat 40 yards is as close as they can get to a turkey wit out soundin like a one man band falling down da stairs.

Carbon 6, you’ve been standing to close to the street rappers at the bus stop, lol.

 

[hinamanra]

I think these ammunition makers are pandering to fear! Hunters fear having a bird just not being close enough and where a rifle would cover it they are however restricted to shotguns.
Many guys and girls don't have the time or desire to do the ground work first too.
So anything made that appeals to giving a hunter the "edge" will ultimately make someone a profit.
Oh and Dave....you should of used more powder but 3f

It's trading skill for technology, it can be seen in just about everything these days.

 

[renegadehunter]

So...using a .410 to make it more challenging...but being able to reach out 40 yards is their thing?
Makes perfect sense...

 

[Carbon 6]

I thinks is a better brag to see how close you can get. I've had a flock of them walk past at 3 yards while deer hunting, just sitting against a tree.

2 feet, could have literally grabbed it.

 

[SDSmlf]

So the "newest" thing out for the moderns is going after turkey with a .410 and using almost an ounce and a half of tungsten shot. The idea is you reduce the diameter of the shot column, you reduce the size of the pellets to #9 and use tungsten, and you apply a very tight choke while launching that 1 and 13/16ths of shot. This is supposed to give you enough pellets at the center of the pattern with enough umph to harvest the turkey, no worries.

Well at $6 a shell, it better clean and pluck the dang turkey too (imho).

Why is this here on this forum?

Because some of our fellow ML hunters are having to use tungsten instead of lead for round ball, and tungsten shot in #7 and #9 is now out there and probably soon to be available in loose form, if not already. Which means that folks using muzzleloaders will likely stray into use of the stuff too, whether by regulations or just to get more pellets. Though again at the present time the prohibitive cost of the stuff might dampen enthusiasm for experimentation.

All of this is to reach 40 yards. So some of our muzzleloading kin will likely try this in a 28 gauge...a smooth bored .54/.55 if not something larger.

So after hearing about this new stuff, I patterned a 20 gauge trade gun two weeks ago using 2 ounces of shot and a light load of 55 grains of 2Fg. The effort was to see the pattern with a relatively low power load, because..., if it didn't pattern well at that load, then increasing the powder wouldn't really improve the pattern, just the impact of the shot. Also because that much shot was not something I normally used, but I've read and seen videos of folks using that much shot in a 20 gauge, cylinder bore gun. I used #4 shot.

At 33 yards the pattern wasn't good enough for turkey..wasn't good enough for squirrels either. (33 yards as the yahoo who positioned the pattern board at the range just eyeballed it, thinking it at 25 yards )

So I tried my load 1.25 ounces #4 with 80 grains of powder, and as I was only with my son, I advance until I was at 25 yards...WOW so the pattern was much better and would work for turkey (and I've tried it on squirrels already, with success) .

Not to mention the shot is plain old #4 lead. Now I admit, since I didn't use tungsten, it's not a very good comparison, as I don't know if that makes a difference in flight from my gun. So I'm NOT knocking the tungsten shot for performance.

I'm knocking the train-of-thought that one has to be farther from the turkey and push the safe limits of the gun, to get the results, while using decoys and calls, and at the same time the hunter is dressed in some sort of bush-wooky outfit that would make a modern military sniper proud.

I'm not very experienced in harvesting Jake turkeys, so I may be full of beans. This year I will be going for them hard, in the Spring season. So I wonder, is it that tough to get them into range when your range is 25 yards?


LD

Thought I would do a quick poor man’s fact check.

Opened the latest Natchez Shooters Supplies flyer that arrived in the mail. .410 shells with TSS (18 g/cc) seem to hold at most 13/16 oz of #7 or #9 shot and cost about $5 each. There are 12 gauge shells available holding 1-3/4 to 2–1/2 oz, but no need to discuss any of this here, except maybe for comparison to muzzleloader loads.

Just for a talking point, lead’s weight is about 11.34 g/cc while tungsten is 19.3 g/cc. Would expect the tungsten shot to penetrate above its diameter class, but at what cost? You can get TSS (18 g/cc) #9 shot from Ballistics Products, but at around $50 a pound, question why one would, unless hemmed in by some legal restriction. And I have no idea how friendly TSS would be to a muzzleloader’s choke? Might require a plastic shot cup? Don’t know.

As far as ‘turkey loads’, was taught that as long as you could penetrate a soup can (or similar) and consistently have multiple hits on a two inch target you were good to go with shot size and distance. I have been using a mix of #4 and #6 lead shot in my SxS, and feel confident out to 30 yards, although all my turkey shots seem to be 20 yards or less.

 

[Carbon 6]

You can turn a 12 gauge into a 410, but you can't turn a 410 into a 12 gauge.