• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

What is a "musket"?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
paulvallandigham said:
I don't think an M-16 would be called a " Musket", because it took a bayonet!

:

Actually, I wouldn't call an M16 much of anything...not anything I could repeat here, anyway.

The term "musket" seems to have totally disappeared from general use around 1900.

Again, we're talking 18th and 19th centuries here, not 17th, or 20th.

Old gun terms are nebulous at best, and there is a VERY powerful drive in the modern mind to cubbyhole each and every item and term from 200 years ago (probably sparked by the modern military penchant for neatly categorizing EVERYTHING, with lots of commas...). It just don't work that way.
 
Don

I believe I clearly state the "carbine ball" using the ammunition to define the arm. The statement I originally attempted to clarify was that they shot X ball not that they had X bore. There is a difference there. Other then commenting on inaccuracies in Neuman I haven't commented on bore, but on the ball.

In Bailey British Military Rifles
Please reference page 41
"made to use carbine bore(.615) ball"
 
"Again, we're talking 18th and 19th centuries here, not 17th, or 20th."

Why not the 17th century, was this not the time of Porthos and the other Mousketeers?
 
tg said:
"Again, we're talking 18th and 19th centuries here, not 17th, or 20th."

Why not the 17th century, was this not the time of Porthos and the other Mousketeers?

...whom I never saw actually carry a musket.... :hmm:
 
Russ T Frizzen said:
No, not quite--but it is increasingly obvious that the simple definitions applied to these firearms are beyond the ken of a great number of people. These terms have been carefully defined several times during this thread and still have not been comprehended. These are specific firearms and are different from each other. That someone would lump rifled-muskets and rifle-muskets together as being the same thing at this point in the discussion indicates just what a waste of time the whole exercise has been.

Hmmm....I don't comprehend!

All silliness aside, I want you to understand right now (with a Nixonian shake of the head) that talking or arguing about guns is NEVER, EVER a waste of time! Now, talking WITHOUT mentioning guns IS a waste of time. :snore:
 
I thought the Mouseketeers appeared in 1955 or so. I had a wicked crush on Annette...M-i-c-k-e-y---M-o-u-s-e!!!! Ah, takes me back it does!
 
Gentlemen:

At least can we agree that Muskets whether from the 16th Century or the 19th Century are just a fun way to spend the day at the range, woods, etc? I know I just LOVE all of my girls..:youcrazy:..err.. Muskets. :grin:

Slowmatch Forever!
Teleoceras
 
Russ T Frizzen said:
I thought the Mouseketeers appeared in 1955 or so. I had a wicked crush on Annette...M-i-c-k-e-y---M-o-u-s-e!!!! Ah, takes me back it does!

Annette and Molly Bee (who recently passed away). Those were the days.
 
Looking back, I have often wondered about Roy...what's up with an old fat guy playing with kids :hmm:
 
Bryan Brown said:
Russ

Sorry that is not correct. Standard British Carbine ball was .615 caliber for use in 62 caliber arms. This was a standardized caliber designation in the British Army in the entire 18th century, and actually dates back to the 1600's. May I direct you to Dewitt Baileys Rifles in the British Army, and Blackwells Guns and Rifles of the World for documentation.

The Brown Bess aka Short Land Pattern musket or earlier Long Land Pattern Musket is nominally 75 caliber, I think your confusion maybe coming from paper wrapped cartridges for the Bess shooting nominal 69 caliber ball. But patched ball you would use .735 ball.

This is the post where you state that the .615 caliber ball was the standard carbine ball and that it was for use in .62 caliber arms. This is a pretty clear statement that British carbines were of .62 caliber. And that I was incorrect about the .66" bore being the standard carbine bore. This may be why Don was asking you the question. And pointing out that Bailey states that carbine bore was .66". Very much as Mr. Neumann thought. :v
 
:hatsoff: Allow me to join the discussion now.
Maybe I can help because I´m at home in two languages. :wink:

The word "musket" (Muskete) in German language is only used for a smoothbore military longarms.
German wikipedia even mentions that in English later on the term "rifled musket" came up.
So this is what confuses you IMHO.
Musket is - and originally was - a word for a military smoothbore. Later on some guy was using the term also for rifled military arms. Because he wasn´t aware that musket stands for smoothbore. :doh:
That´s why we don´t have that meaning in German too for rifled arms. Using the word also for other guns came later and was "invented" by someone who spoke english.


German wikipedia also mentions that the word musket shall have it´s origin in the french word for hawk (mousquet) because of the form of the hammer.
:hatsoff:
 
Yes! A smoothbored military weapon was called a musket and it was the main battle weapon and assault weapon for a very long time. And they were grand guns indeed.

In America the term "rifled-musket" meant a true smoothbore musket that at a later point in its life had been given rifling. Since there now existed side by side in the same army two externally identical weapons, save in some cases for a rear sight on the rifled-musket, the two terms were necessary to differentiate them. And as time moved on and the Minie came into use, ammunition for the two weapons also differed--this time radically.

The rifle-musket retained many of the musket's features appearance-wise but was really an entirely new firearm, designed from the beginning to fire the Minie ball. It might well have been simply called a rifle except for one problem: there already existed a U.S. rifle. While there had been U.S. rifles going back to the Model of 1803, the Model of 1855 was in use as was the Model of 1841, both fine weapons. To avoid confusion, the Minie rifles were called rifle-muskets. It was all very simple and sensible to the military man a century and a half ago (and really still is) but many today want a rifle to be a rifle and a musket to be a musket and can't imagine or accept a melding of the two. There's some irony in the fact that terminology that was meant to clarify things back in the day is the source of so much confusion today!! :rotf:
 
Russ T Frizzen said:
Yes! A smoothbored military weapon was called a musket and it was the main battle weapon and assault weapon for a very long time. And they were grand guns indeed.

In America the term "rifled-musket" meant a true smoothbore musket that at a later point in its life had been given rifling. Since there now existed side by side in the same army two externally identical weapons, save in some cases for a rear sight on the rifled-musket, the two terms were necessary to differentiate them. And as time moved on and the Minie came into use, ammunition for the two weapons also differed--this time radically.

The rifle-musket retained many of the musket's features appearance-wise but was really an entirely new firearm, designed from the beginning to fire the Minie ball. It might well have been simply called a rifle except for one problem: there already existed a U.S. rifle. While there had been U.S. rifles going back to the Model of 1803, the Model of 1855 was in use as was the Model of 1841, both fine weapons. To avoid confusion, the Minie rifles were called rifle-muskets. It was all very simple and sensible to the military man a century and a half ago (and really still is) but many today want a rifle to be a rifle and a musket to be a musket and can't imagine or accept a melding of the two. There's some irony in the fact that terminology that was meant to clarify things back in the day is the source of so much confusion today!! :rotf:

Very well put! I just now found this thread (been off for a while) and was about to jump in until I saw that the different terms have been discussed. All of this can be confusing to a newcomer to military arms and I've seen where even oldtimers got confused.

To make things even more confusing, another word pops up when looking at reports and tables listing different arms during the CW era. That word is "altered". I've often run across it in reports of arms in store, &c. It simply describes a flintlock musket that has been converted to percussion, such as the majority of the M1816's, most which were simple alterations to a percussion lock, though as has been said earlier, several thousand were converted by Remington to use the Maynard primer. This lock and hammer design was later adopted for use on the new M1855 Rifle-Musket.

In some cases, the term "altered" included not just percussioning but rifling and sighting of the musket, but usually I've seen the term "altered and rifled" used in this case. However, there is at least one case where "altered" means something different. In Small Arms - 1856 there is mentioned an "Altered Rifle Model 1841". Now, the M1841 was already percussion and rifled. The term was used in this case to specify that the rifle's bore was enlarged and re-rifled from .54 to .58 caliber to accomodate the use of the 500 grain expanding ball (Minie). So readers of the history of these guns have to keep track of models or types of these guns and the periods of time in which they are described.

An interesting note about the term musket is the fact that several breechloading and repeating rifles were called muskets, such as some of the Winchester "High Wall" rifles, the Winchester M1895 Russian Model Musket and the Evans New Model Military Musket (made in the 1870's). And also even in more recent times, when a soldier was sentenced to die by firing squad, he was to be shot to death by musketry.

But now I'm just rambling.
 
You will find the term "altered" fairly often. You've done a grand job of explaining it and I believe you covered all the bases. Thanks! :thumbsup:
 
KanawhaRanger said:
...It simply describes a flintlock musket that has been converted to percussion, such as the majority of the M1816's, most which were simple alterations to a percussion lock, though as has been said earlier, several thousand were converted by Remington...

Like this?

-

:)
 
Perhaps this will help. From the book American Rifle, a Biography, by Alexander Rose (A great book, BTW). Page 113:
"In the United States, the Ordnance Department was at first cautious about the rifle-musket hybrid and instead focused on integrating the Model 1841 rifle and Model 1842 musket. Here, then, the two types of weapons continued to be regarded as distinct."
On page 114, he writes:
"The Model 1855's appearance also marked two major milestones; henceforth the U.S. government produced no more smoothbores, and after nearly 150 years the accurate rifle and the fast-loading musket finally converged into the hybrid then known as the rifle-musket and eventually--for convenience's sake-- just "rifle.""
 
PA Rifleman, as discussed in the thread specific to your converted M1840, you have an H&P (Hewes and Phillips) bolster conversion. To add more to what we discussed in your thread, Remington did no conversion work for states or the Federal Government, they provided Maynard Conversion locks to the Federal Government and the new bolsters (of the M1855 Rifle Musket style, very different from yours) were fabricated and installed by the Federal arsenal at Springfield.
 
Back
Top