what is faster

[joseph mcdonough]

i have seen the topics on shot cartaiges and shot bags with built in mesure first question witch is faster second witch is pc also are the shot cups just for good patterns ? thanks in advance

 

[Dave K]

Well, it all depends what period you are into that determine what is PC. As far as shot cups, you need to pattern a gun with and without at different payloads, powder charges and cushion card arrangements to determine what is best for your style of shooting and what patterns you are looking for. A tight pattern maybe perfect for turkey, but not for doves or even skeet.I am a hunter, with my SxS shotguns, so quick and safe reloading is what I want. Most guns that I hunt with are actual 1850's era guns, some are earlier as well. I use what works best for me and what pattern also works best for me. If you spend some time at the patterning board, you will see a trend develope for you. Make sure you log these trials and I make up index cards of load info, that I carry in my shooting bags for each gun. Your opinon may vary, but I personally like English style shot pouches and powder flasks.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you want speed, use modern guns and ammo. You are shooting Black Powder guns. they are muzzle loaders. You are combining shooting with reloading in the barrel of your gun. Making HASTE, makes waste, then and now. It is far more important that you develope a good load, which patterns well for the kind of shooting you intend to do with your gun, and then develope habits in loading so that you don't make mistakes and leave something out, than to worry about how fast you can reload your gun. Dove shooting is about the only game bird we have with large enough bag limits that you can expect to get a lot of shooting, whether you use a muzzle loader, or breech stuffer. Still when the birds are flying over a good field, so that there is even the remote possibility that you can take your limit, there is no need to rush. Doves circle and come around again, even when shot at. So, take your time and reload the gun properly, and then point the game and hit it. You can't miss fast enough regardless of what gun or ammo you use.

 

[AZ-Robert]

...on shot cartridges and shot bags with built in measure first question which is faster

About the same for me, as long as there are no hiccups with that built-in measure. I use the English style of built-in measure rather than the Irish style (links to pics below). I think the Irish style would be slower, as would using a separate measure of any sort.

second... which is pc also are the shot cups just for good patterns ?

I'm using the shot cups (cartridges) mainly in an effort to improve my patterns and protect my bore from lead fouling. I don't know how PC they are.

pic of English Type shotflask head

pic of Irish Type shotflask head

 

[Mike Brooks]

I use Irish flask heads. I carry two leather flasks, One for powder and one for shot.

 

[TN.Frank]

I'm not worried about a "fast" second shot, I just want the first shot to be right. After I shoot I'll take whatever time it takes to reload properly and have another go, no need to hurry, you're hunting to relax, not win a speed contest. Make the first shot count, reload and then make that shot count.
You can always make up "pre-loads" of powder and shot using penny and nickel wrappers from the local bank. Glue one end, staple the other, makes loading a bit quicker.

 

[joseph mcdonough]

let me clarify i do not mean spead as in how fast i can get a shot off and reload for another shot
but in process aka. a paper cartrage vs. powder patch and ball. the paper would seem a less involved process but is it,and other factors such as inconsistoncy in powder and paper wad

 

[paulvallandigham]

It would depend on the gun you want to shoot, whether it is a smoothbore, or rifle, what kind of projectile you want to shoot, whether it is flint or percussion, etc. Speed is usually only obtained by skipping some safety steps. We have those safety steps for a reason. I can load my flintlock and fire within 15 seconds, but its dangerous to be around the gun when I fire it, as well as when I am loading it. However, if that is all I have to defend my life, and I am being attacked, the choice is to hurry up or be killed anyway. Thankfully, we do not have to rely on muzzleloaders to save our lives. That is why I have told you to concentrate on loading the gun correctly, and safely, and forget about speed shooting. There is nothing to prove by shooting a BP rifle fast, and it sure would be silly to have to explain to an Emergency room doctor how stupid you were in loading your gun that got you injuried. It would be even more indecent if someone had to explain to your family why you are not coming home from the rifle range, ever. That powder horn you hold in your hand is a small bomb, and cutting corners to speed load your gun could get that horn to explode in your face. What would be left on top of your shoulders would be unrecognizable, and you might also injure or kill anyone else standing near you. That is why we have range safety rules, and we all practice them religiously. We can talk about speed loading, and talk to the kids about it at various lectures, but we don't do it. I cna't think of a faster way to lose friends at the range than to do something stupid like that. At my club, you will be thrown off the range, and maybe even kicked out of the club. If you want to use paper cartouches, like were used in revolutionary battles, and get minute of man accuracy at 50 yards, then go ahead and make up those loads. They are fine, and they are generally safe to use. But don't expect to be snuffing candle flames out at 20 yds with that kind of load. :hmm:

 

[CrackStock]

It is hard to beat the speed of a round ball wrapped in a paper cartridge. I am not as interested in speed for hunting, but when you need to do a timed event such as cutting a 4X4 or putting a certain number of hits on a piece of paper for time, this is the route.

CS

 

[mmahlock]

I use Irish flask heads. I carry two leather flasks, One for powder and one for shot.

A quick question. Did you modify the one you use with powder? I have one that works fine with shot but looks like it would leak powder.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you are in a
" Stake " shoot, the local range will dictate how you can load your gun " fast ". The rules vary, depending on how much they think their insurance policy will cover. You are responsible for being safe with your gun. I agree that using a paper cartridge in some muskets is faster than anything else, and leave a margin of safety. If you are not using one of the military replica rifles, however, then speed shooting involves shortening hand movements, as in, have all the components that have to go down the barrel in hand so you don't have to make repeated movements from the muzzle to the bag, and back. I would want a rifle with a coned muzzle, or my fowler, if I was shooting a stake shoot. I would use precut patches, and premeasured powder charges so that I could quickly pour the powder in the barrel, then put the precut patch and then a ball in the barrel, and run them down on the charge with one stroke of my ramrod. I would close the frizzen before putting the powder charge in the barrel, and count on the quick push of the PRB down the barrel to blow enough powder out through the touch hole to provide the priming I need to fire the gun. My touch hole is 5/64" , and will do that. That is as fast as I want to load a flintlock safely. I figure in a team competition, I can get off maybe 5 shots before someone cuts that post. My gun will stay clean enough for 5 shots.

 

[CrackStock]

I did not realize that local rules were included in the original question...

I thought that we were discussing speed.

CS

 

[paulvallandigham]

Crackshot: Do you know of a stake shoot that doesn't take place at a club, or is not controlled by " house rules"? That one would be new to me. I could skip the patch, spit a ball down the barrel, thump the butt of my rifle or fowler on the ground to seat the ball, and be ready to fire rather quickly. Of Course, hitting and cutting off a 4 x 4 post all by myself might take some time with that kind of accuracy, but I might get it done with some luck. I have shot stake shoots with muzzle loadering rifles, and with modern handguns. Firepower helps, but accuracy almost always wins. You can't miss quickly enough. And, with cutting a stake, you can miss the remaining wood by shooting through a prior hole, as well as by missing the post entirely.

 

[Homesteader]

Sir Michael, I've got a double snake with Irish chargers that I bought thinking I'd use one for shot, one for powder. Just as you suspected, it leaked powder badly. I wound up buying a brass H & S "flameproof" flask for my powder and now carry two different sizes of shot in the snake.

 

[riarcher]

Think I got the question right.
Paper carts wouldbe quicker to load in the field (especially from a bag/pouch). But, remember you'll be spending plenty of time making "good" carts at home. If you figure the "making time", then the PB would win in fastest total time required for "X" number of shots.
Carts also have the added plus of requiring just 1 little pouch vs. ball bag, horn, measure, patch, bag, knife, etc.
Sometimes it's nice to sitdown and make a pile of carts while watching a Patriot's Game when you can't hunt too.