What is the cartridge gun equivelency of ML'ers

[Col. Batguano]

I know guys can and do successfully hunt deer with a 40 cal (where legal) and up from there.

But people often think in terms of "killing power" in relation to what they know, which is cartridge guns. Yes I know it's all about mass and velocity. So here's a stab at it for normal hunting type of loads and PRB velocities.

36 Cal 1900 fps = 25-20 Win
40 cal 1900 fps = 30 Carbine
45 cal 1800 fps = 30-30 Win
50 Cal 1500 fps = 30-40 Krag
54 cal 1300 fps = 308 Win
58 cal 1200 fps = 270 Win
62 cal 1200 fps = 20 ga. slug, 30-`06 Gov't
69 cal 1100 fps = 45-90 Win, 444 Marlin
77 cal 1100 fps = 12 ga. slug, 7mm Rem Mag
4 Bore 1000 fps = 458 Win Mag

Your opinions will differ of course, but it's an interesting comparison.

Maybe a "pounds of free recoil" chart would be more to the point?

 

[BrownBear]

There's a fallacy in your thinking.

For example, a 36 cal lands on target with a larger frontal area than a 25-20 can achieve with max expansion way on down the wound channel. The wound channel for that 36 starts right at the skin and might even expand a little more to boot. Got both and shot a lot of game with both. Match the velocities of the two, and the 36 isn't going to leave a speck of eating meat, while the 25-20 is polite enough to serve you dinner. I have to hold the velocities of my 36's (and even my 32's and 30's) waaaaaaay down below 25-20 velocities to have a prayer for dinner.

And I'd never thought of comparing my 58 calibers with my 270's. Whooooeeeeee, is that ever a dead end street.

 

[jamesthomas]

Also, are those muzzle velocities? I wonder because the modern rifle will hold its FPS better than a muzzleloader therefore having a longer range. Your range with a muzzleloader is shorter than for a modern rifle because it loses velocity a lot faster. I have a .40 cal. and while it may be legal in my sate there is no way I will go deer hunting with it. Its why I'm getting the parts up for a .45 cal. for next deer season.

 

[galamb]

You are only comparing velocity.

The ballistics of a conical round/bullet is better than a round ball and also it's "heavier" so you have more retained energy down range.

Yes, if I stuff about 75 grains of powder down the spout of my 45 I can get 1800 fps and about 300 foot pounds of retained energy at 100 yards out of a 128 grain round ball, but -

a 30-30, shooting the bottom end ammunition on the market retains over 1300 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards and well over 1600 with a premium round.

We are not even talking about apples and oranges here, more like apples and elephants.

There is no comparison.

On any caliber below 54 you are not going to kill with "shock" the way you do with a CF. You need shot placement on a vital area...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I've been flamed on this forum for using such comparisons as a very crude basis to begin a conversation with a cartridge shooter about black powder loads.

I had to explain I understood that they are not equivalent in reality, but as many of the deer hunters that I have encountered simply look at the weight of the projectile and its veilocity and really know very little about what their projectile does on impact..., it does get their attention.

The conversations begin with fellows wondering about the "power" in a good prb loading, and I ask them if they have ever used a .30-30 or a .44 magnum on deer. Everybody has seen or heard about the .30-30 and most have at least heard about the .44 Mag coming from a rifle...

So I equate the original .30-30 with the 160 grain LFN bullet to the .490 prb, and the .44 Magnum to the .530 prb. (I have used .35 Remington in the past but the .44 Mag is a bit "closer")

It's very rare in a hunter safety class that anybody who is there with a new hunter, or is new hunter, or the person who hunted in their old country and now who want to start hunting in the United States, have any idea about terminal ballistics. Hornady bullets, Nosler, Speer, cast lead with or without a gas check, or a prb, they have no clue. But when I equate the bullet weights and the velocities (which they know from the packaging and experience) then they begin to understand that the prb is often very capable on big game.

My objective is to get them from poo-poo-ing the prb, and then maybe try it out, and also maybe they will read up a little more on what they shoot and Dad or Nickie Newguy will become a much better hunter, choosing accuracy and performance instead of "Big an phast, so must be gud" mentality. Kids often follow the adult's example so...

LD

 

[larry wv]

44 Magnum to the .530 prb :nono: No way no how. Larry

 

[hanshi]

Your scale is about like what I've experienced. You got a pretty good handle on killing power.

 

[hanshi]

Now the reason I mostly agree with your figures is because of similarities of killing power, not because of velocity or 100 yard energy. Critics need to understand energy/velocity comparisons are ludicrous; killing power comparisons are valid.

 

[Col. Batguano]

The foot-pounds of energy thing is not really valid when it comes to killing power, mostly because in the model, it puts a premium on velocity over mass, or frontal area.

The old Thompson-LaGarde experiments where they shot a bunch of goats and stuff with different calibers and timed how long it took them to die (pretty grisly huh?) was a way to try and figure out an intangible like this.

I posed the original question or sort of comparables as a way of talking with cartridge guys abut what it is that we are using, relative to what they are using. As such, it's subject to a bunch of opinions and is hardly anything that can be quantified with a formula, or maybe it could. I just don't know what it would be. But High velocity moderns kill through wound channel size, and hydrostatic shock, and PRB's are more of a "blunt force trauma" sort of killer. At the end of the day the critter is dead either way.

 

[hanshi]

You are correct; there is nothing that can be compared, cf vs ml, except killing power. IMO the source of the killing power of both is irrelevant but the field results can be subjectively compared same as one cartridge is compared with another. I've killed deer with around a couple dozen rifle calibers and four revolver calibers. By paying careful attention to the reaction on cf hit game, it was obvious to (me, sic) which ml bore size created the same lethality.

For instance, I found the .45prb to equal or surpass the 30/30 in terminal effect. And so on with other bore sizes. So your comparison table, though it could possibly be tweaked and modified a bit, is still essentially valid, as long as lethality/killing power is the comparison eschewing any thoughts of energy, range and velocity.

 

[Wes/Tex]

I've never thought of truly comparing any muzzleloading caliber to a particular cartridge caliber but, as I've said before, I feel muzzleloading hunting compares very closely with handgun hunting with magnum cartridge revolvers. I'm not thinking of anything outside of apparent effect on deer sized animals. Neither has the 'slap-down' effect sometimes witnessed in centerfire rifles...both seem similar in animal reaction and time from shot to drop. Learned from old handgun shooter years ago to sit down and wait a bit, hit deer will usually run a bit and lay down if not being closely followed. His comment was, "They seldom get up". Have found the same thing true over the years while muzzleloading hunting. The old man would sit down and roll a cigarette by hand and smoke it before he'd start tracking...must be where I learned that bad habit!

 

[Kapow]

Flamed? More like incinerated! You can put it anyway you want, but you will get criticism for drawing comparisons. It is useful though, for describing the difference between calibres to non muzzleloader shooters.

For example, I always say that the difference between the 0.50 and 0.54 roundball is like the difference between the 30/30 and 45/70. Also that the LETHALITY of each WITHIN their effective ranges are comparable to those centrefire calibres. It is a simple way of telling doubters that they aren't toys.

 

[galamb]

The foot-pounds of energy thing is not really valid when it comes to killing power, mostly because in the model, it puts a premium on velocity over mass, or frontal area.

I agree, in that, if I put a PRB through and through the heart or lungs with my 40 cal at say 50 yards then the "killing power" is more than sufficient to put down Bambi - and has done so for me over the past 8 years of hunting with a 40.

I am a bow hunter so understand completely about "killing power" - my recurve that develops a whopping 40 foot pounds of energy at 20 yards has taken down some big deer.

But Bambi can also be killed by "shock". And most studies/anecdotal information puts that number somewhere around 800 foot pounds.

So while I need a shot from my 40 to go through the vitals, a more poorly placed shot from a CF will still have enough retained energy to kill by "shock" - something I can never hope to achieve with my ML.

 

[Idaho Ron]

The chart on "killing power" is ridiculous. I know this will end up in a fight so I am not going there. :bull:
Ron

 

[Stumpkiller]

I would not put my .54 anywhere near a .308 WIN for effective range or killing power. More like a
.44 Rem Mag (keep it under 125 yards). The .50 a bit less.

I have a .30-40 Krag and it has well over twice the effective range of my .50 cap rifle (IMHO). Probably one of the premier whitetail cartridges for woods and small pastures. With a scope well over 3X the range.

The round ball has awful ballistic properties and has no range. You have to be a hunter and not a shooter.

 

[hanshi]

Stumpy, I thought it was already posted and accepted that, in the comparison, neither range, velocity or energy figured into the comparisons; only terminal effect on deer. I've had about the same proportions of deer dropping DRT with prb hits as with cf hits. True, you want range; then use a modern cf. A prb will kill it just as dead, just as quickly as a .308, within the critical range of a prb; we're not talking 300 yards, more like under 100 to 130 yards. Either something odd is going on or I'm a better shot than I thought. My 30/30 gains me nothing over a .45 prb except range which is not the issue. I hope everyone can see and understand this.

 

[galamb]

My 30-30 gains me nothing over a .45 prb except range which is not the issue. I hope everyone can see and understand this.

This is where if find that comment "dangerous" to a new ML shooter.

If I hit a deer in the hip at say 100 yards with a 30/30 I will most certainly put it down with that 1350 pounds of "retained energy".

It may not be dead but it's hip will be shattered - it will not run away and I WILL recover the deer....

Now, if I hit it in the hip with my 45 roundball, which is barely packing 275 foot pounds, I may well injure it and probably mortally, but how far will it run before it lays down and dies???

Will I recover it?

So while the "bunch of us" that are "fully aware" of the limitations of a round ball rifle can make these kinds of comparisons, telling a first timer that their 45 cal pushing a 128 grain ball with 60 grains of powder is the SAME as a 30-30 in "any respect" is, in my opinion, a quick way to end up with a forest full of wounded deer...

 

[Idaho Ron]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

 

[Idaho Ron]

What the heck. My 45 is the same as a trap door 45-70 with the original trap door load. :thumbsup:

 

[azmntman]

I shot a smallish 2 year old cow elk with a 30-30 once at about 60 yds and KNEW it was a heart shot. Having JUST started hiking I simply turned around and went to the truck, got a cup of coffee, ropes and such and then in bout 10 min walked up to start the chore. She got up and ran! I fortunately (unknown still why) took the rifle with me and shot her again running and dropped her. Cleaned out her heart was shot dead center (and she had a slug from the 2nd shot in the boiler room quartering away as well).

On the PRB side I have shot a few elk with a .54 prb and they dropped or ran less than 50 yds and were DEAD when I approached.

CF or PRB, just depends. I have hunted way way more with BP than CF and have no issues with terminal effect at all. And I do not use mag charges, usual load for elk is my .58 with 80 gr or the .54 with 75. Deer fear me with 70 grains in the .50.

Dads buffalo was shot with 90 gr buffalo bullet in .58 and was runnin or would have dropped, it ran dead three leaps is all. Doubt a 300 mag woulda killed it any deader or any faster.

Of course we all have had some go further for whatever reason. Especially elk, they have an incredible will to live. If ya shoot, reload, and wait bout 10 min before you go forward they usually will be ready to start on when ya walk up. (HOWEVER I have known guys that walked up to a "dead" elk and gut near crippled by hoofs, always approach from the back of the head and touch the eye before you get near the hoofs of any "dead" animal.

No charts just 35 yrs or so of hunting.