What Lock is this?

[Ike Godsey]

hi!

someone offered me a flintlock rifle, costum made in 1972. does anyone could tell me

- what lock is this?
- could that be swaped with any other flintlock without the roller on the frizzen?

thank you,

ike

 

[jdkerstetter]

R.E. Davis John Twigg: lock. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/724/6/LOCK-TWIGG

Why would you want to do away with the roller frizzen? That is a desirable feature, not a negative one. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[LaBonte]

From 1972 I'd say it's more likely to be an L & R Durs Egg - don't believe the Twigg was around back then and IIRC RE Davis hadn't opened it's doors yet in 1972.

Look inside on the lock plate there should be a mark there.

and I agree the roller spring is an improvement when fitted properly...

 

[Ike Godsey]

i would like to change the roller 'cause it is my believe that locks with a roller on the frizzen or the frizzen spring are good locks - no question - but post AWI. can you convince me that this is not the case?

ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

don't know about the barrelmaker.
yes. i got more pics:

the price he is asking is 2180.00€ - add 25% to it for the US$ price.

ike

 

[54ball]

That's too high. If it were sale over here I would say $700.00 but that's just me.

It's debatable about the roller lock as Egg and Ketland roller locks could very well date to the Rev War era.

The lock is the least of that rifle's problems. It looks to be a early 19th century rifle to me. The barrel is straight and the silver mounts, most likely German or Nickel Sivler are way too late for Rev War.
Also IMHO the execution of the build, though probably good for the era "1972" leaves a lot to be desired today. For the money, at least over here you could do a lot better.

 

[Robby]

Sure looks like a Twigg to me LaBonte. Just looked at mine and its the same, same.
Robby

 

[Robby]

i would like to change the roller 'cause it is my believe that locks with a roller on the frizzen or the frizzen spring are good locks - no question - but post AWI. can you convince me that this is not the case?

ike

Whats AWI? If it has to do with the time line, the steel hardware wouldn't be correct either.
Robby

 

[jdkerstetter]

...good locks - no question - but post AWI. can you convince me that this is not the case? ike

English lock makers Twigg, Griffin and Bailes had all made locks with roller frizzens by the 1760-70's.

For what it's worth, I agree with Travis....in that this is not a good representative Revolutionary War piece anyway. No point in sugar coating it as you haven't bought it, that rifle is overpriced for what it is.

That lock is a Davis Twigg and find the 1972 date suspicious as the trigger is an unmodified current Davis offering too....#0210.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[matt denison]

...good locks - no question - but post AWI. can you convince me that this is not the case? ike

English lock makers Twigg, Griffin and Bailes had all made locks with roller frizzens by the 1760-70's.

For what it's worth, I agree with Travis....in that this is not a good representative Revolutionary War piece anyway. No point in sugar coating it as you haven't bought it, that rifle is overpriced for what it is.That lock is a Davis Twigg and find the 1972 date suspicious as the trigger is an unmodified current Davis offering too....#0210.

Enjoy, J.D.

Concur 100%

 

[Vaino]

I agree that it's a Davis Twigg...built this LR in 1983 and it's definitely got a Twigg lock.....Fred

 

[Dphar]

From 1972 I'd say it's more likely to be an L & R Durs Egg - don't believe the Twigg was around back then and IIRC RE Davis hadn't opened it's doors yet in 1972.

Look inside on the lock plate there should be a mark there.

and I agree the roller spring is an improvement when fitted properly...

IIRC there were Twigg locks being made in Canada.
Can't recall the name right now.
Dab

 

[54ball]

Ike,
For $2700USD you could have a fine Revolutionary Longrifle built by a custom builder. I promise you it would be correct with no shortcuts like that rifle has.

Note the single lock bolt. Instead of a front lock bolt it has a small screw.
The builder did not even bother to find or make a proper size wood screw to disguise that short cut.

The architecture is poor, it's a blend of styles that does not mix well.

As I said earlier I would value it less than $1000USD. Now being in Germany that may be a factor in the price, but again for over here it is too high priced.

 

[shootrj2003]

Robby
I believe AWI refers to American war of independence,
I think the fittings look brass to me and I ' m no expert as to it's historic placement but it's a better rifle than 700.00!JMHO

 

[shootrj2003]

Robby
I believe AWI refers to American war of independence,
I think the fittings look brass to me and I ' m no expert as to it's historic placement but it's a better rifle than 700.00!JMHO
Don't take me to say it's worth the asking price either, I just am not that knowledgable,but it is worth more than $700.00

 

[Dphar]

i would like to change the roller 'cause it is my believe that locks with a roller on the frizzen or the frizzen spring are good locks - no question - but post AWI. can you convince me that this is not the case?

ike

The roller on the spring or frizzen and the link type mainspring both predate the American Revolution in English lock making.
That the cheap export locks commonly found on American arms lack these features even into the 19th c. is no sign that they were not being used on better grade locks.
You cannot make this lock "earlier" by removing the roller. There are other factors and it is what it is. But note the similarities between this lock and that found on some mid-1770s Ferguson rifles by Durs Egg.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I would suggest that you find and study "English Guns and Rifles" by George and "British Military FLintlock Rifles" by Dewitt Bailey.
The "Germanic Siler" style lock is very similar to "French locks" of the late 17th-early 18th c though the lock plate shape and other features were in common to another 100 years or so. So lock shapes that many see as "Revolutionary War period" are actually much older.
Military issue flintlocks seldom had rollers or links right to the adoption of the percussion system they staid more "old school".
We have to remember that the European Guild system resulted in Journeymen gunstockers, saddle makers, lock filers etc. journeying for several years and to work in several different countries during this time. So a German lock filer might be very well versed in locks made in France for example. It is a mistake to think that German lock filer, for example, could only make Germanic locks or that there was not an exchange of ideas across borders in 18th c Europe.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

Whoever made the rifle made a generic Kentucky.

To make a Rev-war rifle one should use a rev-war rifle as a guide and follow it closely so it appears as if made by the same maker. An exact copy is extremely difficult without the original in hand and can be tough even then.
I suspect it was more likely made in the 1990s than the 1970s.

I would not give this price for it. It has some issues, $2700 US should buy a pretty good rifle with better shaping etc.

Dan

 

[Matt85]

the price is way too high! a fine custom made gun can be had for less then that. that gun you pictured looks to be worth less then $1000 USD by todays standards.

-matt

 

[54ball]

This if for Ike too.

Since I let my fingers do the walking and punched out $700USD. I guess I better explain.

I have seen better examples for sale here on classifieds in the $700 price range.

The architecture of the rifle, the heart of it is poor. It does not have the artful flow of an original longrifle. The carving and "silver" cannot hide this. The study of longrifles helps you pick out this artful flow. This rifle simply does not have "the look".

The robust butt does not match or flow into the front of the rifle.

The wrist is too thick.

The lock and side panels are too large.

The sideplate bolt and screw work is sloppy.

The wood behind the breach and above the lock and side panels is too high and nearly flat with the tang. The top line of the barrel side flat should meet the top line of the side panel.

The carving does nothing for it. I mean it's OK at spots but honestly it's a little cheesy or fake looking around the lock panel beavertails.

The nickle silver clashes with the finish. Also nickel silver is late 19th century at best.

The entry pipe area and really the whole upper and lower fore stock in front of the trigger guard are not shaped as well as they could be.

Where the upper and lower forestock meet at the entry pipe, the transition is very abrupt. Some southern Mountains can pull this off. This one does not. This is what I meant by a mixture of styles.

The straight barrel, swamped would be more pleasing.

The maker would have been better off building a plain rifle with good architecture and simple brass mounts instead of this full house attempt.

Here is a TOTW Beck can you see the look I'm talking about?

Is it a good rifle. I'm sure it is for a hunter and reenactor and it would get a lot "oohs and ahhs" but for $2700+US much better can be had.