What makes a knife traditional

[WyomingWhitetail]

So I know this forum is devoted to the traditional style but what exactly defines a traditional knife. I would think that on the frontier a knife would have been made out of just about any materials and just about any blade shape etc etc. So other than plastic gripped serrated ceramic bladed urban commando knifes just about any knife could be considered traditional as long as it has a useful blade profile and is made out of materials that would have been available. What say you guys?

 

[50cal.cliff]

I am no expert in this field there are a couple that come to mind that probably are. One is Labonte and the other is Wick.

I will say this except for trade knives the majority of the knives of this period were off the table or out of the larder so to speak. Meaning a lot of them were mere butcher knives and what might be considered a wide blades carving knife.

Now that is not saying it is set in stone that they were all like that. They were often influenced by different nationalities because as the white man moved west he traded them with the Indians for different goods, furs, etc. Thus the name trade knives.

Check out a book called, Firearms, Traps, and Tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russel. It has a lot of black and white pics of original knives from that period!

Goggle Wick Ellerbe or Chuck Burrows (Labonte) and they have some pic of the knives they build which most them are of that particular period!
I am sure some others will be able to give you other references as too knives from that period.
Google is often your friend!
:wink:

I will say this in closing there are many knives that are designed to be period correct but often it is the materials that make a knife incorrect for the period. Copper and brass were sometimes used on certain pieces. But iron pins would have been the most common. Most if they had a guard or a bolster would have been made of iron not brass or any material similar. Knives back then were more common as they would have been considered a tool to use everyday!

 

[rich pierce]

Most knives owned in the Americas in the 1700s and 1800s were factory made or made in small shops to specs for the trade. Some few were forged by blacksmiths and gunsmiths. In some cases these were primitive, but in others, quite refined.

"Traditional" and "historically accurate" mean different things to different folks. When making historically accurate goods, it's important to use the same forms, similar materials and similar assembly techniques.

I've seen far too many knives made of flat stock essentially untapered from spine to the grind and hilt to point, with a grind just along the edge, posing as "authentic". Then there's the whole Woodbury school of pewter-bolstered "long knives" that are elegant but not representative of what the "longhunter" would have carried.

 

[crockett]

Generally speaking, an established cutlery industry did not exist in the U.S. until after 1840. That means that domestic knives were blacksmith made- like Jim Bowie's famous knife. The mountain man Jim Baker made a couple of butcher-type knives for himself, probably after 1840. Jim Bridger made at least one of his own traps, he was a blacksmith apprentice at one time. But the great majority of cutlery was imported from Sheffield England and Sheffield was set up to supply Americans. I think 40% of the Sheffield cutlers made folding knives and 70% of their output was exported to the U.S. (a census a few years past 1840- maybe 1843 if I recall correctly)

 

[gmarc]

You would have to define "traditional" There were many knife types in Europe that were not commonly seen in North America in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

Conversely, there are patterns we associate with "kitchen knives" that have been made in Europe since the 15th century. These are still made today, with updated materials and to a lesser degree, styling. One example would be the partial-tang "butcher" type knives that were brought into North America by the thousands.

 

[LaBonte]

Generally speaking, an established cutlery industry did not exist in the U.S. until after 1840. That means that domestic knives were blacksmith made- like Jim Bowie's famous knife.

Yes and no - while there was no industrial level cutlery businesses there were trained cutlers who were not just blacksmiths - some were also gunsmiths. Shively for instance, and also the Philadelphia concern of Sheffield Knifemakers who were in business in the early 1830's, but there were also professional American cutlers during the Colonial and early American period, just not large manufacturing concerns.

Overall though as noted above most knives up until the mid-1800's came from Euro sources, in particular Sheffield England.
Knives available ran the gamut from plain and simple butchers and scalpers, to fancy buck handled and ebony handled with silver inlays, etc. knives of various sorts.

IMO - The main thing when looking at any gear is to pin where you are and at what time - IMO time needs to be pinned down to at most a 5 year time span and a 1 or 2 since products did change. i.e. what was available in say 1765 would not be the same necessarily in 1805 and what was available on the Coast was not necessarily available on the frontier.......

For a good and inexpensive overview of knives available to the trade from the 1700-1800's is the Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook, available from various vendors including the publisher Museum of the Fur Trade - price is around $8.00 plus S/H and is well worth the price....

 

[WyomingWhitetail]

hmm some interesting thoughts. I don't really have any interest in reenacting or anything just interested in discussion.

 

[tg]

"So I know this forum is devoted to the traditional style but what exactly defines a traditional knife."

Often it is any knife which a articular person takes a fancy to and looks kinda old timey...

 

[50cal.cliff]

"So I know this forum is devoted to the traditional style but what exactly defines a traditional knife."

Often it is any knife which a articular person takes a fancy to and looks kinda old timey...

OFTEN! :haha: :rotf: :stir:

The main problem is most folks that aren't in to down right traditional don't want to carry something as plain as most of those knives were back then. In writing they call that poetic license, I think! In traditional recreation of the period, you call that close enough, I guess! :v

Look I am really not trying to start something but I think we all try to get as close as we can. Some can't afford the luxury and some don't understand how to get there and others just don't care.

Personally I am not a pure traditionalist but I do strive to get as close to right as I can. Ask questions and do the research and then you have to make up your mind how close you want to get to traditional. Remember you asked the question! :wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

There is really nothing new in the shape of knife and dagger blades that haven't been made sometime in the past 2,000 years or more. For a Traditional looking knife, avoid using materials that didn't exist during the time frame in issue.

A. Don't use Stainless steels for blades.

B. Don't use synthetic materials for handles or hilts.

C. Avoid using metals that were not available- like Aluminum-- back when.

Most handles on working knives were made of wood, but some were made from bone- not always antlers. Fancy knives for Royal customers got the full treatment- silver, Gold, Platinum, engraving, Ivory or Ebony or other exotic woods, etc.

Folding knives were single blade affairs, not the multiple bladed "Swiss"-type pocket knives we know today, with all the extra tools enclosed. Some whale bone, baleen, tusks, and other forms of bone or ivory were seen in knives made by sailor during the whale hunting period prior to the Civil War. But, for the most part, working knives were simple in construction and function.

Few knives were made to be used in Knife fights- with double guards or hilts. Short swords were popular among the richer classes along the coasts, replaced by pistols and revolvers as the century progressed, during the early 19th century, but rarely seen out in the wilderness.

From a practical perspective, the longer you use knives to do a variety of work, the shorter the blades become. I use my pocket knife more to gut deer than I have my "sportsman's" knives, either folding or fixed blades, for instance. The bigger blades simply get in the way and are hard to maneuver inside the carcass where you want to cut the windpipe loose to free the lungs. Skinning chores can benefit from a longer blade, however,so there is no ONE knife- shape or style or length-- that does everything well. Knives were the original "all-purpose" tool, that never was expected to do everything well.

That's as close to defining Traditional knives as I can get for you. " I know it when I see it", is about as good a definition( Thank you, Justice Potter Stewart).

 

[crockett]

WyomingWhitetail: I'm not sure what time frame you are interested in but since it looks like you are in Wyoming, I'll guess the mountain man era say 1822 to 1840. A good, inexpensive choice would be the 6" butcher knife shown here:

http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/acatalog/Miscellaneous.html

This knife uses iron/steel pins instead of copper cutler rivets (late 1880's-1890's) and the edge of the blade is in line with the bottom of the tang. It isn't exact, there is no taper on the tang, etc- but it is pretty close.

 

[WyomingWhitetail]

So traditionally would knives have had tapered blades from spine to edge and handle to tip?

 

[rich pierce]

So traditionally would knives have had tapered blades from spine to edge and handle to tip?

"Knives" is pretty broad, encompassing cleavers, butcher knives, bread knives, table knives, paring knives, filet knives, boning knives, folding knives, skinning knives, etc.... you get the idea.

In general knives that were forged pre-1800 tried to be as cheap as possible with the steel. So if the tangs were flat for bone, wood, antler or ivory scales, the tangs were seldom full length and were tapered. A rat tail tang saved on steel also. The blades of knives used for slicing were also usually tapered from bolster to tip and spine to edge. Not so if a cleaver, obviously. What types of knives interest you?

 

[crockett]

It depends on the knife. On a scalper, there was a half tang that tapered from front to back so that the back of the tang was square (actually- the corners were sort of rounded). On a butcher knife there was also a half tang but the taper was from front to back AND from back(spine-top) down to the front (edge). This double taper made the rear of the tang slanted, the short side on the bottom(front) and the long side on the back (Top). The blades were tapered from the shoulder to the tip and from the back to the edge.
On a table knife, although they were forged the metal is so thin that the general effect is a flat blade. The table knives can have an iron bolster and rat tail tang that are forge welded to a steel blade.