I am thinking about getting some sort of smooth bore and considering a NW trade gun. There are various fusils, brown bess, etc. As I understand it, expect about 3" groups at 50 yards. Is that type of accuracy correct and is one type of smooth bore, gauge, barrel length, model, more accurate than another? :hmm:
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What's most accurate
- Thread starter crockett
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Doc Arroyo
Greybeard
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Gun fit will determine a bunch on accuracy. I shoot a English fowler (chief's grade trade gun), and the drop and pull fit me well. Best group out of it is a ragged hole about 1 1/2" across. :applause: It was shot at 25 yards, and I haven't been able to repeat it! Close but usually drop one out of the group. :hmm:
But I can't seem to shoot a French fowler worth a damn. A member of my shooting club had one, and I could not get it to group. Be he and I traded first and second in the smoothbore comp every year! :haha:
As for guage, I understand that the smaller bores shoot tighter. If I ever replace the 20ga I have, I may try a 28ga.
But I can't seem to shoot a French fowler worth a damn. A member of my shooting club had one, and I could not get it to group. Be he and I traded first and second in the smoothbore comp every year! :haha:
As for guage, I understand that the smaller bores shoot tighter. If I ever replace the 20ga I have, I may try a 28ga.
Couple quick things to consider.....
1. To get a 3 inche group at 50 yards you may have to do some serious load development. Smoothbore are notoriously partial on loads that produce accuracy. Some prefer patched round balls and others like a bare ball. Does it shoot better with a wad then PRB or BB. All these things come into play. Some NSSA buddies of mine are getting great groups out of "kurd" their balls. By kurd I mean rolling them between a rasp till they're bore size then dipping them in lube.
2. Smoothbores are light and very hard to hold steady. The lower the caliber the more barrel weight there is, therefore better to hold. 28g/54cal smoothbores make good shooting gun, NMLRA outlawed 40cal because others wouldn't shoot against them.
3. You can't hold a smoothbore like you do a rifle, you really have to hold it tight against your shoulder and wait for the shot.
4. Normally they use large English or round face locks. These produce a lot of hammer shock when that big flint hits the frizzen. Again, you have to hold it tight against your shoulder and wait for the shot.
5. Finally, smoothbores are great to shoot, but they can be very frustrating if you expect it to shoot like a rifle'd gun. Remember, you're shooting a shotgun.
Side note..... When I finish carving the gun I'm working on now, I'm going to build a smoothbore strictly for target work. 44 inch, 54 cal/28g, Getz octagon to round barrel, Cain single set trigger, Large Siler percusion lock, with an English walnut stock. Behind the buttplate I'm going to drill a hole 3 inches deep and fill it with lead for weight. Then pour lead under the barrel to for balance. It should weigh around 9 pounds when I'm finished. I'm not going to carry it in the woods, strictly target gun.
S'Poke
1. To get a 3 inche group at 50 yards you may have to do some serious load development. Smoothbore are notoriously partial on loads that produce accuracy. Some prefer patched round balls and others like a bare ball. Does it shoot better with a wad then PRB or BB. All these things come into play. Some NSSA buddies of mine are getting great groups out of "kurd" their balls. By kurd I mean rolling them between a rasp till they're bore size then dipping them in lube.
2. Smoothbores are light and very hard to hold steady. The lower the caliber the more barrel weight there is, therefore better to hold. 28g/54cal smoothbores make good shooting gun, NMLRA outlawed 40cal because others wouldn't shoot against them.
3. You can't hold a smoothbore like you do a rifle, you really have to hold it tight against your shoulder and wait for the shot.
4. Normally they use large English or round face locks. These produce a lot of hammer shock when that big flint hits the frizzen. Again, you have to hold it tight against your shoulder and wait for the shot.
5. Finally, smoothbores are great to shoot, but they can be very frustrating if you expect it to shoot like a rifle'd gun. Remember, you're shooting a shotgun.
Side note..... When I finish carving the gun I'm working on now, I'm going to build a smoothbore strictly for target work. 44 inch, 54 cal/28g, Getz octagon to round barrel, Cain single set trigger, Large Siler percusion lock, with an English walnut stock. Behind the buttplate I'm going to drill a hole 3 inches deep and fill it with lead for weight. Then pour lead under the barrel to for balance. It should weigh around 9 pounds when I'm finished. I'm not going to carry it in the woods, strictly target gun.
S'Poke
The NW gun is a favorite and seems to shoot well for most shooters, this gun in a .58 which is the PC bore size is a comfortable gun to use and is accurate when you find the right load, and a rear sight is a valid option from a PC standpoint is you choose to use one.
Guest
Well now, smoothie hey? I got sucked into the smoothie thing via the corrupting influence of the guys on this forum
But then I was a scoped in-line shooter before I came here, NOW I own 4 flinters, 3 handmade, 2 built for me by birrdog6!Anyway, back to smoothies.
I took the inexpensive route since I already owned a T/C Renegade and bought a .62 smoothbore GM drop in barrel.
I've managed to shoot 1" groups at 25 yards, but even they spread to 10" at 50! Go figure.
Very disapointing and this barrel has good front AND rear sights and I shoot from the bench when I develope loads.
However the thing shoots well with birdshot. It'll make a good shotgun for rabbits, but so what?
So far I've learned that smoothbore accuracy is allusive at best and requires serious load developement.
I'm not ready to give up as I think 4" groups at 50 and 10" at 75 yards are possible.
Oh and by the way I still have an in-line but must admit the flinters are without a doubt the most attractive and funs rifles I've ever owned.
But then I was a scoped in-line shooter before I came here, NOW I own 4 flinters, 3 handmade, 2 built for me by birrdog6!Anyway, back to smoothies.
I took the inexpensive route since I already owned a T/C Renegade and bought a .62 smoothbore GM drop in barrel.
I've managed to shoot 1" groups at 25 yards, but even they spread to 10" at 50! Go figure.
Very disapointing and this barrel has good front AND rear sights and I shoot from the bench when I develope loads.
However the thing shoots well with birdshot. It'll make a good shotgun for rabbits, but so what?
So far I've learned that smoothbore accuracy is allusive at best and requires serious load developement.
I'm not ready to give up as I think 4" groups at 50 and 10" at 75 yards are possible.
Oh and by the way I still have an in-line but must admit the flinters are without a doubt the most attractive and funs rifles I've ever owned.
Guest
Smoothbore accuracy can be a here today, gone tomorrow type of thing if all the points already listed here, aren't adheared to.
: A further point about shooting from the bench for load testing is required. The gun must be held the same as it is when shot standing - that is, "in both hands", with the back of the fore-hand on the bags, not the fore-wood itself. It must be held in the hand and held tightly, to produce even the same size groups that offhand or kneeling can give. This gets back to proper bench strategy and bag-technique that the Bench Rest shooters are continually harping about, just that it's different for the ML in general, and very different for the flinters with big locks. It IS more than merely sitting down and llightly resting the gun and 'having at' the target.
: One high ranking observer in the 1830's described the 'then-curren' US military guns as having locks with fully 3 times the strength of mainspring they needed, and shooting way to much powder for accurate shooting or what was required for such close shooting on men as well as too-undersized, balls. For hunting, we require a bit more power than required to produce a fatal injury on a man, but for deer, certainly not the 165gr or even the 130gr. service charge of the 14 guage. In most of the large bore'd smoothies, a charge of 80gr. to 100gr. will handle most situations and for tight bush environments, even 60gr. to 80gr. will suffice. The lighter charges usually shoot more accurately than do the huge ones. This type of testing requires various patch thicknesses, perhaps testing with wads and, of course different powder charges. I would resrict the initial testing to the range I want for my maximum - NO SHOOT BEYOND - RANGE, then adjust that if necessary, but find the laod that shoots the bes there After than, re-test THAT particular load at closer ranges, and see if it suffices there. It makes little sense to work up load that shoots one hole at 40yd. but requires a bushell basket to hold the 90 or 100yd. group. I am certain that the load that shoots accurately enough at the max range, will indeed, shoot well for the same game at closer range. The reverse of this is unlikely.
: Rolling the balls with a rasp until large enough to fit, sounds like a geat idea. First of all, it destroys the windage, and secondly the cuts hold lube to help keep the fouling soft. It is a very good idea for those who shoot with wads, for sure.
: A further point about shooting from the bench for load testing is required. The gun must be held the same as it is when shot standing - that is, "in both hands", with the back of the fore-hand on the bags, not the fore-wood itself. It must be held in the hand and held tightly, to produce even the same size groups that offhand or kneeling can give. This gets back to proper bench strategy and bag-technique that the Bench Rest shooters are continually harping about, just that it's different for the ML in general, and very different for the flinters with big locks. It IS more than merely sitting down and llightly resting the gun and 'having at' the target.
: One high ranking observer in the 1830's described the 'then-curren' US military guns as having locks with fully 3 times the strength of mainspring they needed, and shooting way to much powder for accurate shooting or what was required for such close shooting on men as well as too-undersized, balls. For hunting, we require a bit more power than required to produce a fatal injury on a man, but for deer, certainly not the 165gr or even the 130gr. service charge of the 14 guage. In most of the large bore'd smoothies, a charge of 80gr. to 100gr. will handle most situations and for tight bush environments, even 60gr. to 80gr. will suffice. The lighter charges usually shoot more accurately than do the huge ones. This type of testing requires various patch thicknesses, perhaps testing with wads and, of course different powder charges. I would resrict the initial testing to the range I want for my maximum - NO SHOOT BEYOND - RANGE, then adjust that if necessary, but find the laod that shoots the bes there After than, re-test THAT particular load at closer ranges, and see if it suffices there. It makes little sense to work up load that shoots one hole at 40yd. but requires a bushell basket to hold the 90 or 100yd. group. I am certain that the load that shoots accurately enough at the max range, will indeed, shoot well for the same game at closer range. The reverse of this is unlikely.
: Rolling the balls with a rasp until large enough to fit, sounds like a geat idea. First of all, it destroys the windage, and secondly the cuts hold lube to help keep the fouling soft. It is a very good idea for those who shoot with wads, for sure.
" Rolling the balls with a rasp until large enough to fit, sounds like a geat idea. First of all, it destroys the windage, and secondly the cuts hold lube to help keep the fouling soft. It is a very good idea for those who shoot with wads, for sure"
I nthe NSSA you can't use a patch to hold the ball in place, so some guys from Texas came up with the idea of kurding it to bore size and dipping in lube twice. I think the lube they use is crisco mixed with Alox (sp) It really does work well. They just load powder and put the ball on top... with no wad or card... since it's bore size it stays in place.
I've had really good results kurding the ball unlubed but I use a wad underneath and a card over it.
S'Poke
I nthe NSSA you can't use a patch to hold the ball in place, so some guys from Texas came up with the idea of kurding it to bore size and dipping in lube twice. I think the lube they use is crisco mixed with Alox (sp) It really does work well. They just load powder and put the ball on top... with no wad or card... since it's bore size it stays in place.
I've had really good results kurding the ball unlubed but I use a wad underneath and a card over it.
S'Poke
Guest
I like the fiberwad over the powder then patched ball on top. Tightens up my groups. It holds the ball from moving or turning in the bore and more concentric to the bore.
Teleoceras
45 Cal.
Slowpoke:
One thing on that note was why Wheellocks were still being made as target guns until the early 19th Century.
With the only moving part being a wheel, you have no hammer shock to deal with. I know that Sparky, my .58 smoothbore Wheellock is a damn good shooter at 25 and 50 yards when you have a good piece of pyrite in the dog.
:m2c:
One thing on that note was why Wheellocks were still being made as target guns until the early 19th Century.
With the only moving part being a wheel, you have no hammer shock to deal with. I know that Sparky, my .58 smoothbore Wheellock is a damn good shooter at 25 and 50 yards when you have a good piece of pyrite in the dog.
:m2c:
Today I tried some .610 roundball out of my Renegade with the Green Mountian Barrel. I was hoping the larger ball would be more accurate without patch, shooting off the nitro card, fiber wad, and covered in a over the shot card.
My first shock was the ball itself. These are swagged, made by Buffalo Bullet Company and weigh 344 grains. The shock was, they would not fall down the barrel. There must be a slight choke on the Green Mountain Barrel that I was not aware of. No way could you have patched this. I used the short starter to get it into the barrel on top of the fiber wad. Once in the barrel is loaded fine.
At 25 yards the smoothie was super accurate. I moved back to 35 yards off sticks and it was still not real bad. It shot about a 3" group. Back at 50 yards off the sticks, the main shots were about a 6" group. I started getting some real flyers here though. It would be shooting good then all of a sudden throw one eight inches low. ::
I tried shooting the thing every way you could think. Lubed wads, un-lubed wads, no wads, double nitro cards, double shot cards. It really made no difference.
I then cleaned the smoothie and shot my .600 handcast ball. The accuracy was about the same as the store bought. I was hoping that the bigger ball would behave better since it had no spur. I guess the spur is not that big a factor as I thought it was....
I am determined to deer hunt with this smoothbore this year. I have to be able to say I did it... :thumbsup: I also want to get the flinter shooting soon. I want to use that if I can get a good shooting load out of it....
My first shock was the ball itself. These are swagged, made by Buffalo Bullet Company and weigh 344 grains. The shock was, they would not fall down the barrel. There must be a slight choke on the Green Mountain Barrel that I was not aware of. No way could you have patched this. I used the short starter to get it into the barrel on top of the fiber wad. Once in the barrel is loaded fine.
At 25 yards the smoothie was super accurate. I moved back to 35 yards off sticks and it was still not real bad. It shot about a 3" group. Back at 50 yards off the sticks, the main shots were about a 6" group. I started getting some real flyers here though. It would be shooting good then all of a sudden throw one eight inches low. ::
I tried shooting the thing every way you could think. Lubed wads, un-lubed wads, no wads, double nitro cards, double shot cards. It really made no difference.
I then cleaned the smoothie and shot my .600 handcast ball. The accuracy was about the same as the store bought. I was hoping that the bigger ball would behave better since it had no spur. I guess the spur is not that big a factor as I thought it was....
I am determined to deer hunt with this smoothbore this year. I have to be able to say I did it... :thumbsup: I also want to get the flinter shooting soon. I want to use that if I can get a good shooting load out of it....
Guest
Good luck getting the thing to shoot.
Now I know why the old 12 gauge pumpkin ball went the way of the extinction, replaced by the foster slug.
I have some 20 gauge foster slugs comming my way. Hopefully these will be a vast improvement over the miserable roundball.
Now I know why the old 12 gauge pumpkin ball went the way of the extinction, replaced by the foster slug.
I have some 20 gauge foster slugs comming my way. Hopefully these will be a vast improvement over the miserable roundball.
Leonredbeard
54 Cal.
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maxiball,
where did you get the foster slugs? I may need to goe that route this year in NJ.
God bless.
volatpluvia
where did you get the foster slugs? I may need to goe that route this year in NJ.
God bless.
volatpluvia
Guest
Lyman makes a Foster slug mould in both 20 bore and 12 bore. I don't know what the nominal size of the cast slugs will be, however. Lee also makes one, but it has a cross-support of lead in the hollow skirt, partially negating the hollow base reasoning by shifting the C of G sligtly back. The weight-forward bias may be sufficient, though.
: In loading round balls in the 12 bore, I found solid balls of the correct size to be more accurate than comercial foster slugs.
: The reason factory 'punkin' balls went the way of the dodo, is due to their being smaller than .690" to pass through full chokes. They rattled down the bore, then launched in any direction upon leaving. I found that larger balls, helt tigtly in the centre of the bore to be more accurate than factory slugs.
: Old 20 bore "punkins" would have been .580" (APPROX)in dia and VERY innacurate compared to a bore fitting combination.
: Remington 12 bore slugs are still made at .690" in dia. while Winchester and Federal are the largest at .725 to .730".
: What the production 20 bore sizes are, I don't know - sorry.
: In loading round balls in the 12 bore, I found solid balls of the correct size to be more accurate than comercial foster slugs.
: The reason factory 'punkin' balls went the way of the dodo, is due to their being smaller than .690" to pass through full chokes. They rattled down the bore, then launched in any direction upon leaving. I found that larger balls, helt tigtly in the centre of the bore to be more accurate than factory slugs.
: Old 20 bore "punkins" would have been .580" (APPROX)in dia and VERY innacurate compared to a bore fitting combination.
: Remington 12 bore slugs are still made at .690" in dia. while Winchester and Federal are the largest at .725 to .730".
: What the production 20 bore sizes are, I don't know - sorry.
Guest
I get mine from a guy in Washington State, but shipping is killer. You are better off doing a search to find ready made, or buy a mold and cast some.
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