Where is all the barrels going?

[Packdog]

The below post about Rice made me think "Who is using all this barrels"? It seems Rice and Getz are making all they can make and they are behind. GM has just entered the market with a mass produced swamped barrel. You would think that alone would have eased presure on Rice and Getz but it sounds like they are just as behind. So with all those barrels being sold why aren't there tons of people shooting BP guns everytime I go to the range? Anybody have a clue how many barrels might be produced annually by the major barrel makers?
Packdog
:huh:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Good question. Most smiths have a 12 month backlog. Jim Chambers had a 600 unit backlog on flintlock mechanisms last summer.

'Course, firing ranges are a modern invention. Maybe they're out shooten 'em in the woods. :crackup:

 

[oldarmy]

The plant manager of GM barrel is a member of our range and I have spent many a saturday and sunday shooting with him.
Nice Guy. Has a wonderfull collection of guns, loves to shoot. and yes I have asked him for special prices
He was telling me that one of the reasons GM started to build the swamped barrels was because GM felt the long lead times that Rice and Getz were quoting were hurting the industry.
He told me that swamped barrels are very dificult to mass produce- They are making theirs using CNC machining, it's the only way they can keep the cost down
That the Rice and Getz really are handmade- the swamping is done on a lathe and take hours to produce just one-
Plus he said they were very well made
I am sure they looked at the demand and figured that there are going to be builders that are not going to want to wait for months.
They are not going to stock the truly unique special barrels that the custome rifle makers can make, but are going to stock a nice wide range of "standard barrels".
I asked him about demand and he told me that their business for ML barrels is still strong and growing.
So they must be selling.

 

[Slowpoke]

Personal opinion..... GM will probably put a lot of small barrel makers out of business. Those who's sole income comes from barrels will likely have no choice but go part time in the next 5 years. I think Rice told me that it takes him 105 minutes to swamp a barrel and that doesn't include drilling and rifling. I think he averages about 5 barrels a day.
Just think GM as Wal-Mart and everyone else as Mom&Pop stores. GM sells a barrel of the same quality and $50 less.... the others can compete. Slow but surely

SP

 

[leslie]

I suspect that with the euro going out of sight and the cost of imports following, the cost of a good semi custom rifle kit is not that far away.A look at the Cabellas catalog muzzleloader section tends to make me wonder why anyone would pay those prices when you can get a good made in USA gun for not awhole lot more.

 

[barbie]

No joke, our European sales have increased a good bit thanks to the Euro. As for Chambers/Siler, after the price increase we had to do in August, we're hoping that we can sit on these for a long time to come. I just wish our suppliers would cooperate with our plan. Who's in charge of the price of propane anyway - if I have to turn the heat down anymore I'll have to learn to type with mittens on!! Or use some of these reject stocks in the fireplace. I know, burning curly maple is sacrilegious! :winking:

As for where are all the barrels going? Well, just brain storming the other day Jim and I figured there must be about 9,000 or so muzzleloaders being built every year. Yeh, that sounds high to me too, but otherwise "Where are all these barrels going!?!" :hmm:

Barbie

 

[Packdog]

Barbie,
First thank you for posting. It's good to have a suppliers opinion every now in then. Maybe the question should be Where are all the shooters? That's a lot of guns being built each year! Maybe we have a lot of closet shooters out there.
Packdog

 

[rich pierce]

I have made rifles and guns with barrels from Green Mountain, Green River, Sharon, Paris, Getz, and some guy from Montana whose name I forget, might have been Griffith or Griffen. Locks have been Siler and L&R and Davis and now Chambers. All these will work and shoot well, some require more tuning than others, etc. Folks will make different styles of guns for different reasons. There will always be demand for very good products from smaller suppliers. It is great to have a mix of choices. I doubt Green Mountain's swamped barrels, good as they are or will be, will dent Getz's or Colerain's or Rice's or Rayl's orders.

Many folks who want custom early longrifles want the best quality of every part if they are going to pay from $2500 and up for the custom gun. Because of this, it would be a little harder to sell a custom "early" longrifle for $2500 with a "production" barrel and certain locks, etc. even if the work is very good. If somebody is going to pay serious money for a custom rifle, $4000 and up, they will also want the best wood etc.

I am currently planning the building of a rifle on "spec". I have no customer yet- and so will spend what's needed to get a Getz barrel and Chambers lock so nobody will think, "gee, wish the guy had used better parts, otherwise I really like the piece and might consider buying it." There are other barrel and lock makers who also have that same reputation for quality; I use these as examples.

 

Flintlock Gatling guns. six locks, and six barrels per gun, what else could it be? :shake: :crackup:

 

[Terry Zboril]

Personal opinion..... GM will probably put a lot of small barrel makers out of business. Those who's sole income comes from barrels will likely have no choice but go part time in the next 5 years. I think Rice told me that it takes him 105 minutes to swamp a barrel and that doesn't include drilling and rifling. I think he averages about 5 barrels a day.
Just think GM as Wal-Mart and everyone else as Mom&Pop stores. GM sells a barrel of the same quality and $50 less.... the others can compete. Slow but surely

SP

Poke,

I doubt that will happen.

For the "$50 less" (actually about $35), of Green Mountain swamps, you will also have to buy a breechplug, buy a bottoming tap to finish cutting the threads, and spend a couple of hours fitting the breechplug . Then you also will have to be satisfied with their standard rifling twist and square grooved rifling.

Don't get me wrong, the GM's are a good product, and well made, if you have a well set up shop to breech them. I am building one now.

In contrast, with a custom maker like Rice, They come perfectly breeched, and you can specify any twist, caliber, round or square groove rifling, plus the barrels are heat treated (normalized) to eliminate any stresses, and a carbide ball pushed through the bore to make the bore perfectly true. The outside and inside finish of the Rice barrels are the slickest I have ever seen. Truly "custom made".

There will always be a clientel that will pay more for a "Cadillac" than a "Volkswagon", even though each will get you where you need to go.

Kind of like the difference between a Stelling and a Deering banjo, there will always be a market.

Regards,
Terry

 

[Terry Zboril]

The plant manager of GM barrel is a member of our range and I have spent many a saturday and sunday shooting with him.

Oldarmy,

Please ask for me, and other makers, of the "plant manager" of GM barrels why they do not cut their breech threads full depth?

I have e-mailed them without any response for over a year with this concern. An otherwise fine product.
Regards,
Terry

 

[Packdog]

I don't think GM will dent the business for guys like Rice and Getz. If anything it might help them. If they can continue to produce a great product in a timely fashion them people will continue to buy them. Rushed and behind is the receipt for disaster for a small business. The prior thread on Rice barrels should be proof of that.
Like Rich I'm building a "Spec" gun with no buyer. I'm using what is thought of in the market as the best. :imo: Rice barrel with a Chambers Lock. What if I said I was building a gun with a GM barrel and one of the knockoff copies of a Chambers lock? Just doesn't even have the same sound. Even if the GM shoots just as well and the Knockoff lock works as well. My curb appeal is gone. :m2c: :imo:
Packdog

 

[Birddog6]

I think it is because you now have thousands of guys out there that realize that with a lil time & patience they CAN build a ML and then they build 4-5-6 for themselves, thus it is a growing business. You are a good example of this. You started shooting, realized how much you like it, then you build one (and a Superb job at it) then you do another one & on & on...

:thumbsup:

 

Bird dog ya saying what we figured out.
And that being this here muzzleloading is ADDICTING! eace:

 

[oldarmy]

[Oldarmy,
Please ask for me, and other makers, of the "plant manager" of GM barrels why they do not cut their breech threads full depth?]
Terry,

I will diffently ask him when I see him and tell you what he says.I can't speak for him, but I am sure being a businessman he wants to satisfy the customers.
It seems to be one of the major complaints about their barrels and I will pass it along

 

[Slowpoke]

I'm glad Barbie is lurking around to keep us all straight. Personally, I can't wait till Dixon's this year, she's giving a seminar. I'm going to think up some really, really hard question to ask her.... see if he'll crack under the pressure. :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: Oh heck, she's so lovely I'll just sit in my chair and swoon.

SP

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I have access to 275,000 acres of federal wilderness area land within a few hundred yards from where I type this. The last thing in the world I want, is to see "anyone" when I go for a walk trying to smack rock critters mit der fusil.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I don't think GM will dent the business for guys like Rice and Getz. If anything it might help them. If they can continue to produce a great product in a timely fashion them people will continue to buy them. Rushed and behind is the receipt for disaster for a small business. The prior thread on Rice barrels should be proof of that.
Like Rich I'm building a "Spec" gun with no buyer. I'm using what is thought of in the market as the best. :imo: Rice barrel with a Chambers Lock. What if I said I was building a gun with a GM barrel and one of the knockoff copies of a Chambers lock? Just doesn't even have the same sound. Even if the GM shoots just as well and the Knockoff lock works as well. My curb appeal is gone. :m2c: :imo:
Packdog

My limited personal experience with Getz when it comes to quality has be like what the momma of Forest Gump said about a box of chocolates. "you just never know what you are going to get."

 

[barbie]

I'm glad Barbie is lurking around to keep us all straight. Personally, I can't wait till Dixon's this year, she's giving a seminar. I'm going to think up some really, really hard question to ask her.... see if he'll crack under the pressure. :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: Oh heck, she's so lovely I'll just sit in my chair and swoon.

SP

You're killing me!! :crackup: No pressure right, just a little speech is all...

 

[shmrck1]

Barbie,
would sure like to see you on this forum more
often i'm sure you have a lot to offer :applause: :master:
snake-eyes eace: :thumbsup: