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Which lyman to purchase

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Justin

32 Cal.
Joined
Jul 8, 2004
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Greetings to all

I'm looking for information on purchasing a new muzzleloader (.54) for elk hunting. Accuracy is my main concern. I have narrowed my list to three: cabelas hawken, lyman deerstalker and lyman trade. I wasn't to sure about the 24" barrel on the deerstlk. Does anyone have any suggestions or comments to assist in this decsion?

Thanks
Justin
 
Justin,
I have the Cabela's hawken and for the money it is a
fine b/p shooting gun. It is made by investarms out of
Italy. I have never had any problems with it and get very
good groups with it. I have no info on the other two.
I am snake-eyes
 
The Lyman Trade gun is ok, except it doesn't have a set trigger, which i prefer. The Cabela's Hawken is a good gun for the money, accurate and well built. Built by Investarms, the same company that builds Lymans. If you have a little more money to spend though, i would suggest looking into a Lyman Great Plains rifle. A much more authentic looking rifle and very accurate. Midsouth shooter supply seems to have the best prices on them.
 
I looked at the great plains rifle and thought it might be to long for hunting and carrying on horse back. I'm kind of stuck bewteen wanting accuracy but still having a gun I can manage easily.

Justin
 
Which are you wanting to shoot; round ball, round ball and conical or heavy conical (400 gr. and larger)?

If you wanting to shoot round ball only 1 in 60 twist or slower (like the Great Plains rifle) would be best. If you wanting to shoot round ball and conical 1 in 48 (like the Cabela's Hawkens) would be a good choice. If you wanting to shoot heavy conical 1 in 32 (like the Great Plains hunter) would work but you would sacrifice accuracy with round ball.
 
I prefer to shoot round ball and conical. In the past I have used 300 conical for deer and 385 for elk, but that was out of a 50. I imgaine I will have to play around with the loads for .54. Hunting is with conical but I do a lot of plinking and varmit hunting with round ball.
 
Well there is always the option of getting a Great Plains Hunter with the 1:32 twist for the conicals and then getting an additional barrel in 1:60 twist to interchange for the round ball shooting.

If you don't want to mess with all of that, and like the idea of a shorter rifle, then I would get the Lyman Trade Rifle in .54 caliber. You need to ask Out_a_Huntin's opinion. I think he got a .54 trade rifle and has posted some impressive results with it so far.

I have the same problem as you.... ::
 
If I can manage a Southern Mountain rifle or a Gun Works Hawken from horseback in these thick Missouri woods (and have done so, both here and in the Wyoming Rockies when I lived there) you can manage any of the rifles you mentioned afoot or horseback. I'd go for the Lyman GPR in 54. Great rifle.

Vic
 
I'd get the Cabelas Hawkens. The GPR is too heavy for what you doing with it. While at Cabelas, ask how many they have in stock first -- then ask to see three different units of the 54. I've seen some of their Hawkens with plain-jane wood stocks.. some with real nice grain.
 
As stated by an experienced hunter above the LGP will not be difficult to handle or hunt with on or off a horse, and the .54 RB will do quite well on Elk, Many people past and present have hunted very comfortably afoot or on horseback with guns longer and or heavier than the LGP.
 
Justin,
I must weigh in here. I owned a Lyman trade rifle in .54. It was the second Lyman I owned. The first was the mountain plains rifle. Both of these were excellent guns. The trade rifle seldom had conicals shot through it but the M/P had many conicals shot through it. Both rifles gave very good accuracy with both projectiles. Both were a bear for recoil with the conical with that round but plate. But the but plate on the GPR is even rounder (inside curve)and would really be painful with conicals in the hunter version. Mine were flinters, but both locks performed to near perfecton once I started to use black English flints and 4fg black in the pan. Sorry, though, I went from there directly to custom flinters. I know both gentlemen who own the lymans though.
God bless,
volatpluvia :)
 
Justin,
I have a Trade rifle in .54 and get excellent results with both 300 and 380 grain lee REAL's out of it. It also shoots roundball very well at ranges from 50-75 yards.
The 1:48 twist doesn't give me much accuracy with roundball beyond that.
I just purchased a Great Plains and it is awesome!
I would go with a Great Plains and as said before, you can get a hunter barrel for it with a 1:32 twist for conicals or sabots.
Both the Trade Rifle and great Plains weigh about the same but length could be a concern.
Good luck.

Huntin
 
I totally agree with the Lyman choice. I have the GPR and absolutely love the rifle. The option for barrel interchangeability from 1 in 60 to 1 in 32 is a major plus!
 
a round ball of descent size, ie: .54, or a fast twsit to handle slugs, ie: 32" or faster. The 32" twist Lyman barrel will handle slugs with enough stability to penetrate large game, Elk and Moose, perfetly. The 48" twist in the cheaper made guns will not give good, straight-line penetration with slugs. They are wounders of large game like Moose and Elk. As well, the shallow grooves will not handle RB very well, but can be driven fast enough with sufficient accuracy to kill Moose and Elk to 100yds., much better then they do with slugs.
: You are much better off with a Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .54 cal with either the 32" twist for slugs or 66" twist for RB's.
; Personally, after seeing many (over 100) moose shot with .50 and .54 RB's & slugs (from 48" twists), I much prefer round balls to any form of slug, at least from the 48" twist. Their main advantage comes in point blank range, straight line penetration (which the 48" twist won't give) and not having to worry about trajectory to 120 yds. This is about the maximum range I consider the .54 capable of, for these majectic animals. With a hunting charge, you can sight the rifle so the ball is no more than 2" or 2 1/2" above or below the line of sight from the muzzle to 120yds.
; I also suggest 2f powder to achieve high velocity with much lower pressure and better accuracy than can be done with 3F. 3F will give the same high vel, but at much higher pressure which makes ball/patch combo's more critical.
 
I am new to the forum but not neccesarily new to muzzleloaders. I had one a CVA Hawken .50 a long time ago. I have looked long and hard at the Lyman .54 GPR Caplock in the 1 in 60" twist.

I am still trying to decide between that and a TC Renegade Caplock with a .58 1 in 70" twist Green Mountain barrel for my re-entry into muzzleloading.
 
Welcome Glazer

My vote is for the 58-T/C. Don't get me wrong, the Lyman is a fine gun... but the 58 is "Special".

I've shot a 100 different muzzleloaders... all styles & calibers. I own a half-dozen MLs.... including the top-of-the-line inline Omega & a sweeter-than-sweet brassy Shenandoah long rifle. But lately, the only one I want to grab is the 58 GM.
 
Might as well throw in my $.02 worth. A couple of months ago I bought a Lyman Trade Rifle, a nice looking rifle with a pretty piece of walnut. I've tried various combinations of patches, powders, and charges, and the best 50yd. group I've been able to achieve is 3.5", and the average is around 4". This gun just doesn't like prb. I havent tried conicals because I have no interest in shooting them. In my limited experience with the one in 48" twist I believe it is the luck of the draw. Some people get excellent results with them, others don't.
About a month ago I bought a Lyman GPR for a song, but the barrel had been abused, so I bought a new 54 barrel. From the get-go groups were 2" and I believe it will do better once the barrel has more shots through it. I'm very happy with the GPR, and even though it is a bit heavier and longer than what I would have preferred, I think it will be an excellent hunting arm. I recommend it.
 
Justin,

For all it's worth, I built a Lyman Great Plains Rifle Kit last year.

I can easily clover leaf it at 50 yds on a bench, and this is with a round ball. It's a 54 cal, which takes patched roundballs (1:60some) twist.

It has nice balance and is a pleasure to shot.

Good luck with your choice.
Spot
 
Greetings All,

There appears to be some misconceptions about correct rifling twist being discussed here.

But first Justin, you are going to have to decide if you want to shoot conicals or round ball most of the time. Each bullet/ball type requires a different type of rifling.

Patched round balls in 50 caliber or above give best accuracy with slow twist like 1-60 or slower. BUT only if the grooves are not less than 0.010" deep and are at least equal width to the lands. Wider grooves are not harmful and usually can take a tighter ball/patch combination.

The slower the twist, the higher the velocity needs to be to obtain the best accuracy past 50 yards. This means heavier powder charges and more recoil.

The reverse is also true to a point. Historical research reveals that the 1-48 twist was a standard among most BUT NOT ALL old time gunsmith and was still the most popular twist until the mid 1950,s or so. Around that time the 1-66 began gaining in popularity and evenually became the new standard. As a rule, best groove depth is 0.010-011". 0.012" and deeper seems to break over into the point where too thick a patch is needed and accuracy suffers. Most original Hawken rifle barrels had a 1-48 twist. Interestly enough, a few very late Hawkens manufactured by Sam Hawkens successor, J.P. Gemmer have quick twist rifling that would accomadate only a conical projectile. Evidently, Mr. Gemmer recognized the advantages of a heavy conical for the bigger game of the American West.

The truth be known, I'd bet that more Western big game was killed with the Post Civil War rifled-musket and minie ball, than all of the pre-war round ball guns put together. One of my friends swears by his Civil War replica Enfield and conical for our Texas deer and wild hogs. He seldon uses a round ball rifle anymore.

A 1-48 twist with 010-011" deep grooves will shoot round balls very accurately. In fact, match winning accuracy, but is somewhat more temperamental in regards to varying velocity ranges which interprets to powder charges. The 1-48 handles(in 50-58 caliber) 50-65 grain charges of 2ff or 3ff with out standing, match winning accuracy. 80-85 grains of 2ff or the equivalent load of 3fff seems to be the limit for best accuracy. Velocities faster than this seem to cause the ball to jump over the rifling.

Currently the only way to rifle this deep is to use the cut rifling method such as used by custom ML barrel makers or operations like GREEN MOUNTAIN.

The Lyman GP rifle with a 1-66 twist has the deeper rifling that promotes great round accuracy. Rifling depth in the other models with the 1-48 or quicker twist is more shallow and designed for conicals. The button rifling method is a less expensive mass manufacturing process, but also induces horrendous internal stresses in the barrel and is limited to shallow groove rifling. Custom centerfire barrel makers who use this process stress anneal twice during the manufacturing procedure.

I have long suspected that some the wildly inaccurate black powder rifles are due to stressed button rifled barrels.

Good, sometimes great accuracy can be obtained with a shallow groove button rifled 1-48 barrel, but generally in the 50-60 grain powder range generating lower velocities. High velocity loads will definately "jump" the rifling. The patch and ball diameter is also a critical factor in a shallow groove barrel as well as patch lube and how it is used.

With calibers of 45 and smaller, the 1-48 works much better. In fact, a number of barrel makers do not offer a faster twist for 45 caliber and smaller. In reality, who needs high velocity in a 32-36 caliber bunny or squirrel rifle? Anybody have any idea how many bunnies and squirrels have been shot with the 22 long rifle cartridge? Me either, but none of us have the time to count that high: at not at my age.

Anyway, back to the subject. The shallow groove, fast twist rifling pitces are designed for conicals, but all conicals are not equal.

It is not enough to find a conical that has a proper fit in the bore, but length is also important, not weight. Weight is important only in relation to length. Heavier bullets are generally longer. As a rule, longer bullets require a qicker rifling twist, while short bullet(lighter weight) need the slower twist. The old GREENHILL FORMULA was developed for lead conicals/blackpowder combinations and is still valid today for that combination.

For hunting purposes, conical point shape is also important. Sharp pointed designs have a tendency to punch a hole in deer size animals without expanding unless a bone is hit. A more blunted, slightly hollow pointed design seems to be a better big game design.

Having said all of this now and put myself out on a long limb, I acknowledge that exceptions to all of the above exist, and for these I have no explanation.

Hopefully, this desertation will be useful to newer shooters in this game and clear away some of the fog surrounding blackpowder rifling twist. Much more can be and has been written on the subject; my posting only hits the high points.

Best regards, John L. Hinnant
 
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