Which Zouave Musket?

[smoothshooter]

I am tempted occasionally to pick up one of the 1863 Zouave replica muskets I see at the gun show from time to time, and either use it as is, or have Bobby Whitacre bore it out to 20 gauge, and have Caywood jug choke it to modified choke. I also have about 150 boxes of 200 or 250 count RWS musket caps that I got on clearance sale at Bass Pro five years ago for $1.30 a box that I can use. The ones I see are usually in very good shape, and can be had for $225 to $300. I know all about the controversy over their use in the Civil War, but for my use that doesn't matter. Which maker(s) should I avoid? I understand there are some with soldered breech plugs, or something like that. If so, does that matter / has there been any problems?

 

[Alden]

Well, Pedersoli makes one that I'd prefer but I suspect you won't see those for sale at most gun shows or often anywhere for that matter. Original Remingtons in pretty good condition are not uncommon and those're shootable generally speaking.

I have an original as an example with bayonet in my collection but only shoot an Italian repro I have. That said, I have no idea who made it and never really cared. It's a nice arm, if not a little anachronistic with its rear sight, and shoulda got traction and great use during The War of the Rebellion IMO...

 

[smoothshooter]

Do you know anything about the Zoli's ? I have read that the early ones were pretty good.

 

[Artificer]

I have forgotten how many Zouave/Mississippi Locks I did trigger jobs on in over 23 years of working guns at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships.

Here’s the order in which I recommend you look:

1. Zoli Zouaves made during the 60’s. These had the BEST locks of any Zouave made.

2. Zoli Zouaves made later on.

3. Armi San Paolo Zouaves imported by Navy Arms and Euroarms.

4. Armi San Marco Zouaves imported by Taylors & Company of Winchester, VA

There were a WHOLE BUNCH of absolute crap/junk Zouaves imported by others over the years that you really want to stay away from.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Oh, Pedersoli was not making Zouaves when I was still working the NSSA national shoots, so I have never been inside one of them. However, they most likely make a good one as well.

Gus

 

[Wes/Tex]

Like Gus, I've never seen a Pedersoli made Zouave. Granted, there's a lot of questions about what they were made for so very few appear to have actually been issued. All government correspondence so far found refers to them as "Harpers Ferry Pattern" and that Remington made 12,501 of them...beyond that, only questions. The current "most likely" seems to be they were intended for issue to the artillery regiments and the "Zouave" name, slapped on them in the 60's, came from the old period photos showing Zouave units with what appears to be M.1863s when, in fact, it's M.1841s which have similar but longer patch boxes.

As for which t buy, I'd tend to put Pedersoli and early Zolis in about the same category, based on the quality I've seen in Pedersoli products, at least for the most part. Anyone can have a few slip by the inspectors, but Pedersoli has one of the best records out there. If you just gotta have one of the big Yataghan, sword or saber bayonets(take your pick)for it, they're out there! :wink:

 

[satx78247]

ImVho, it's difficult to find a BAD Zouave.
(At least I've not seen one that wasn't suitable for hunting in 3 decades. = Even the 100.oo "beaters" out of the pawnshops seem to shoot fine & have "hunting accuracy" out to 100M or more.)

Generally in central/south TX, the Zouaves in full-length, "buffalo hunter", "short rifle", "carbine length" or "musketoon dress" sell in nice condition for about 200-250.oo & all of them make GOOD big-game hunting rifles.
(FEW re-enactors like the Zouave, as they were seldom used in TWBTS & may NOT have been used at all BUT they are GREAT for anything up to & including moose.)

yours, satx

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Ii have an older zoli, sort of like the dog so ugly you like it. I never was able to get groups with Minnie balls but it is very good with prbs.

 

[bpd303]

I have an early Navy Arms Zouave (carbine) and the only problem I have had with it is the sear spring needed replacing. It shoots just about anything I put down the bore very accurately depending on powder charge.

 

[Artificer]

(FEW re-enactors like the Zouave, as they were seldom used in TWBTS & may NOT have been used at all BUT they are GREAT for anything up to & including moose.)

yours, satx

You are correct Zouaves are not used by most reenactors. I don't know if this information is still up to date, but as of as late as the 90's, the information stated they were issued to the troops in the chain of forts surrounding Washington, DC during the WBTS and also to "The Veteran Reserve." The latter was made up of both wounded Federals who were recovering from wounds and Old Guys who were not normally sent to the battlefieds, but guarded bridges, turnpikes, river crossings, etc.

The other reason Reenactors don't like them is because if you have one, you MUST be put in the front rank of a formation when blank firing. This because a Zouave Barrel Muzzle in the rear rank is way to easy to get to close to the head of the guy in the front rank.

However, NSSA shooters absolutely freaking love Zouaves and it is most likely STILL the most popular gun for that shooting. The shorter/heavy barrel is better for offhand shooting than longer 3 band rifles that swing more on you in the wind, the stock fits most people very comfortably and they are short enough to load quickly for timed/rapid fire events. The only thing NSSA folks don't like is the heavy trigger pull, but that can be fixed with a trigger job.

Those of us who do trigger jobs on Zouaves have a love/hate feeling for them. Sometimes the quality of the lock parts from even the better makers is not all that hot to say the least. (The best locks are original locks and the REAL Parker Hale locks that were made in England.) It was also not uncommon that repair parts from the factories may or may not fit even their own Zouaves well. I stocked three different maker's parts and SOMETIMES I had to get reproduction parts that some of the Machinists in the NSSA made in their spare time to offset the cost of their hobby - to get parts that fit some locks.

Gus

 

[hawkeye2]

"I understand there are some with soldered breech plugs, or something like that. If so, does that matter / has there been any problems?"

There never were any with soldered breech plugs. Some early Italian Zouaves had a bolster that was a separate piece and brazed to the side of the barrel. There are rumors that these blew off some and to this day the brazed versions are not allowed in N-SSA competition. If you have a good eye and know what you are looking for you can often find the copper colored braze line which would only be a few thousandths thick. When production methods were changed the bolster received a "W" stamped on it to signify it was welded. The "W" has since been dropped.

The Zouave was a staple for Navy Arms but they did sell one version that had a mainspring that was about 2/3 the normal size and a lock of overall lower quality. I haven't seen one of these for years and couldn't tell you how to identify one though a friend had one back in the late '70's.

Pedersoli began production after taking over Euroarms. These are fairly recent on the market and it's not likely you will find one at a cheap price. Armi San Palo became Euroarms (now defunct) and were good quality. The Zolis would be the most common on the used market and can often be bought very reasonable, good shooters too.

The only shortcoming that I can see to your plan to smoothbore one is that it won't handle anywhere nearly as well as a single barrel shotgun/fowler. Other than that it should work fine. When you run out of musket caps you can always install a nipple for #11 caps. Most likely it will be an 8 mm thread if the gun is Italian.

 

[satx78247]

Evidently at least some Zouave muskets were issued to CSA forces (They evidently came through the blockade.), as remains of Remington "Zouave" contract muskets have been found at excavations at Ft Fisher.

Personally, I'm pleased that the re-enactors do NOT like them, as that leaves the RM for us HUNTERS & at "bargain" prices.

yours, satx

 

[Treestalker]

I've owned two in the past, a Navy Arms and a Zoli, both were fine guns. I only shot minnies out of them with 60gr 2f. Plenty of power up close, I never shot over about 50 yds. I understand after the WBTS somebody bored out a bunch to 20 guage smoothbore and sent them to Africa, where native tribesmen used them on everything up to and including elephant (I read once where a more recent native used an old car battery post in one to shoot a cape buffalo :shocked2. If you get one you won't regret it, they're the most handy and beautiful of the CW rifle-muskets,IMHO.:thumbsup: Tree

 

[Artificer]

Evidently at least some Zouave muskets were issued to CSA forces (They evidently came through the blockade.), as remains of Remington "Zouave" contract muskets have been found at excavations at Ft Fisher.

yours, satx

Now that is interesting. It is the first time I've ever heard of evidence of them outside the DC area.
Gus

 

[Leatherbark]

I had a "bad Zouave" that I bought from Sears during a closeout back in 1979. It was imported by F.I.E.

It had a two piece stock with the seam hidden under the rear band

It had a two piece breech plug. A regular looking plug screwed into a bolster with nipple that screwed into the barrel.

THe front sight was a small sort brass wide blade.

THe nipples had a hole in it so large it would blow the hammer back to half cock

The lock had a little mainspring about 1-1/2 inches long and itty bitty lock parts with a coil sear spring. The sear bar was round. I still have the lock

The hammer spring felt like it had the power of a rubber band ( thus blowing the hammer back to halfcock)

I'll swear I can hear Sears Roebuck calling F.I.E and saying have the Italians make us 5000 Zouave as cheap as possible (paid $79.95 for mine). F.I.E calls up the Italians and said "Put us 5000 Zouaves together for $29.95?". The Italians said "For that price a sir we will a need to a gather up a junka parts a out of the garbaga cana Capish?" (Sp?)

F.I.E says "Yeah make them just like our brass frame 51 Navys".

Italians "The ones a with a the 50 thousands cylinder gap?"

F.I.E "that's the one!"


Bob

 

[satx78247]

I've NOT even seen one of those & am glad that I have NOT. = That's called "JUNQUE" or "that fancy imported JUNK".
(CHUCKLE.)

yours, satx

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I have a Zouve barrel with a Breech and barrel with both having female threads and they are held together with a pipe nipple. I posted the pictures hear about 18 months ago. There is a noticeable ring around the interior of the barrel about two inches from the breech face. This is where the pipe nipple and barrel screw together. The fellow that gave it to me routinely got stuck when he ran a cleaning patch and jag down the barrel. I feel the ring could potentially stop a ball and act as a barrel obstruction. To me it is dangerous.
Anyone recognize the cartouche?





BTW The trigger guard of my ZOLI Zouave is stamped Sears Roebuck & Co

 

[satx78247]

Sounds like that you've found yet another F.I.E. "junker" made for Sears, like the one that "Leatherbark" mentioned above.
(Another somewhat older & "more knowledgeable" gun-guy here in SA said that during the "Civil War Centennial" that QUALITY Zouave "replicas" were "all over the place" and about 125-150.oo.)

yours, satx

 

[Artificer]

GOOD info on the Junk F.I.E. Zouaves.

I've also been wracking what little is left of my brain and trying to remember the Importer from Florida who brought in a TON of Junk and even some downright dangerous CW era repro guns. They used to advertise heavily in Shotgun News. I have been searching, but can't find it or remember it now. Hopefully, I will remember it and post it here later.

Gus

 

[bpd303]

The DGG in a circle is, Armi San Palo, superseded by Euroarms. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/236956/