Whitmore, Duff, Wolff & Co.

[Davey Boy]

OCD got me laughing!

I have a learning disability and dyslexia. I wasn't mainstreamed until Jr High and then gradually.

I suppose I got in and out of public schools in rural Maine in a manner that worked for me.

Thanks to all the people that helped me along the way, I have done well.

 

[Zonie]

Davey Boy: If you make your own cleaning jag, size the grooved diameter about .020 smaller than the bore size of the barrel.
For doing the cleaning job it is designed to do, it doesn't have to be a snug fit.

 

[Davey Boy]

That is the information I have been looking for. Thank you!

When the JAG is screwed to the ramrod, are both faces supposed to meet square on against each other or is there a concave face on one face and flat on the other face?

 

[Zonie]

Both faces should be flat.
I suggest using a Allen type set screw, screwed and Loc Tighted into the jag to provide the jag's exposed threads.
Set screws don't cost much and they are available in all standard thread sizes such as a #10-32. Of course if you want to save a few cents you can buy a long, regular #10-32 screw and cut off the length of threads you need to make the screw.

 

[Bighorserider]

Origonal Hawkens used a tabbed washer. I put one on my TC.

 

[Davey Boy]

I need to make a new screw to hold the lock together.

I am thinking slotted fillister, (still think it may be a slotted ball to fit the tabbed washer) , remove the 6-32 cone, install 10-32 Helicoil in the lock.

 

[Davey Boy]

OK, so I made JAG to try with the glass tube as shown below.


I machined the JAG for a slip fit to the glass tube, then I removed 0.020" from the diameter of the JAG. The thinnest cloth I had measured 0.013" and when used with the JAG it would not fit the glass tube. I wet the cloth with alcohol and tried to cram it into the glass tube, no go.

I can try to find thinner fabric but I think it would be better to reduce the diameter of the JAG another 0.010"

 

[Griz44Mag]

I need to make a new screw to hold the lock together.

I am thinking slotted fillister, (still think it may be a slotted ball to fit the tabbed washer) , remove the 6-32 cone, install 10-32 Helicoil in the lock.

Instead of a helicoil - think about one of the solid thread adapters. I have used helicoil in the past - successfully - but a friend showed me the solid one - and I like it.
https://www.ezlok.com/e-z-lok-solid-wall-threaded-inserts-for-metal

 

[Davey Boy]

I have learned something new. The only time I have ever needed to use helicoils is in new product as an interface between two different materials. I will definitely go the E_Z LOK method for this.

Thank you !

 

[renegadehunter]

Fantastic thread, don't know how I've missed it before today.
I've learned several new things that will almost certainly be useful to me in the future.
I'm also enjoying seeing/hearing about your old rifle.

 

[Zonie]

The only problem with those inserts is sometimes there isn't enough room around the hole in the part the insert is being installed into.

Because the outside thread is a standard size, it is quite a bit larger than the inner hole.
For instance, a 1/4-28 internal thread thinwall EZ Loc insert has a 3/8-16 external thread.

A #10-32 EZ Loc thinwall insert has a 5/16-18 external thread.

A #10-32 Helicoil screws into a .233-32 threaded hole and a 1/4-28 Helicoil screws into a .294-28 threaded hole.

In other words, there are a lot of situations where the Helicoil will work but the EZ Loc, Keensert and Ring lock inserts won't.

 

[Davey Boy]

Started out looking for the JAG. Yesterday I cut off a stainless 10-32 machine screw, then rounded the threads with a file. Put the cut off end into the threaded hole of the JAG with Red Loctite. I set it aside to let the Loctite cure. This morning I couldn't find the JAG to save my life. I even drove to work to see if I left it there. Come back home, looked in the truck and under the seat. Finally dumped out my briefcase I had looked through 5 times, and it fell out.

Heated up the shop and went out to take another 0.010" off the diameter. Figured I may as well have a handle on it. So I tapped the end of a 3/8" aluminum rod 10-32. I used a two flute tap (my favorite) and a tap follower. The picture below shows the tap follower at rest and not compressed.



In the picture below, I use the lathe chuck to hold the rod while I turn the tap into the rod end. The tap drill is a #21 and bored deep enough to accumulate the tap cuttings. After the tap has been run to the depth you want (always keep the tap follower compressed enough to follow), begin releasing pressure from the tap follower so the tap can be removed.



This same hand operation can be done in a drill press. The item being tapped will be held in place on the drill press table and the tap, handle, and tap follower will be vertical with the tap follower held with the drill press chuck.

 

[Davey Boy]

I started out with the Jag a slip fit into the glass tube. Then I reduced the JAG diameter by 0.020". Too tight for a patch so I reduced the diameter again, this time by 0.010"



It was pretty tight so I spit on the patch, still too tight. But the patch formed well and excess patch cloth formed around the skirt. I took off another 0.010" from the diameter and carried that diameter all the way to the end of the skirt so if the patch was a little long it wouldn't get jammed by the skirt. I also attached the rod to the JAG so I could push pull in the glass tube, I could push the patch in but it was difficult. A little more spit and it started moving better. The patch stayed in place well in either direction of travel.

From JAG slip fit diameter to final diameter I removed 0.040"



With the patch poofed off the Jag a bit, I run it back and forth in the glass tube. Effort was good and the patch stayed in place as shown below.



Next is to try different fabrics for cleaning patches.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, the grooves on your jag are not deep enough.

They aren't there for decoration. They should be a deep "V" and they should be shaped so that the surfaces closest to the forward end are perpendicular to the axis of the plug. The rear of the V would be roughly 45° to the axis. This is done so the cleaning patch can catch on the perpendicular surfaces and be pulled out of the barrel when the jag is withdrawn.

 

[oldwood]

I've owned several old original rifles. The wood on a rifle of the pre 1850 era becomes shrunken , and the wood starts to disintegrate. Firing an old gun in this condition will cause further rapid deterioration. If possible,build a copy. Also , in one of author , Jim Webb's excellent books , he describes a common practice he has seen on pre-1850 rifle locks. Many of the locks were called "hardware store locks." They were literally sold in the hardware business to replace worn out locks . The hardware locks had no half cock notch . If one did , the notch was filed away , so use of a set trigger was possible. If a lock has no fly to cause the sear to ride over the half cock safety notch , the lock will not fire the gun. One of the hardware store locks I've seen had "Bluegrass Hardware Co. stamped on it. Hope this helps...........oldwood

 

[Davey Boy]

oldwood,

I have decided to load and fire this rifle just once, clean it, lube it, and hang it.

Much like the old cars and planes at Reinbeck, New York and the Owls Head Transportation Museum in Maine, everything they have will go.

But until I find out why I plugged the barrel tight with pillow ticking, I cannot continue to firing the rifle. I am going to make a range rod to go with it even though I won't use it but to load, clean, lube.

I am still thinking on the lock screw.

Then I am thinking a Kibler for my first rifle build.

It is quite the fun!

dave

 

[Davey Boy]

Per Zonie I have recut the JAG at 45 and 90. Not enough length left so the JAG now has just 2 rings.



I tried it with the white cloth as shown below and it worked terrific.



I got out the pillow ticking and watered it to get the stiffness out of it. Just didn't want to go. I took another 0.010" off the diameter of the JAG and tried again. This time the pillow ticking worked quite well (shown below) and I could go back to the white and it worked great too.

 

[Davey Boy]

The glass tube internal diameter is 0.613", final diameter of the JAG is 0.563", final reduction in diameter was 0.050".

I want to keep reducing the size of the JAG until it stops capturing the cleaning patch.

The rifle is ready to load and shoot as soon as powders gets here.

Been pretty raw cold here with some drizzle once in a while.

 

[Davey Boy]

I ordered a box of different ramrod ends and one antique looking one that is back ordered from Track of the Wolf (TOW)

I am going to use a 3/8" 6061 aluminum rod for a range rod. I am going to knurl the rod at the location it is in when ball is seated.

All the pieces are threaded 10-32

 

[brazosland]

I have an Ohio rifle that was made in the mid 1850s.
Did a thorough restoration and cleaning in it (but didn’t refinish the stock) cleaning the metal, replacing missing wood chips and repairing a dozen cracks.

One thing I would point out, I initially thought my rifle was a .40 also. It mic’d out exactly like yours. Turns out it is a .32...the muzzle had been coned and was a full 1.5” down the bore before it was a standard depth.

Maybe yours is a .40. Just figured I would point that out.
Wish I could shoot mine, but the stock is practically like balsa wood, no real strength at all left.

Also, no half cock notch. This was very common at the time. Hammers were carried resting on the cap to keep it from falling off while hunting.

Its the top one in the pic below.