Why are rear sites so far forward?

[leam]

Besides potential pressures as you near the breech, is there any reason to have the rear site as forward as seems to be normal?

 

[ol vern]

So us old farts can see them. :rotf: :rotf:

 

[M. De Land]

That's the truth spoken with good humor!
It's also the reason I have always preferred aperture (peep) sights on the tang with the front blade.
They are more accurate than open at any range and make aging eye have one less focal plane to adjust for.

 

[wattlebuster]

I second that motion vern

 

[Pete G]

If you study pictures of old rifles you will see that quite a few have the rear sight just about over the rear pipe, usually right at the balance point. I sometimes wonder if the idea was to have the sight protected by the carrying hand; it certainly wasn't for comfort in carrying the rifle.

 

[Len Graves]

You know you are old and your eyes are going when your front and rear sight is in the same dovetail. And the answer is no mine is not there, there is at least a half inch between the front and rear sight. I have seen original guns that have dovetail fillers from when the sights were moved for the old guys eyes.

 

[Stophel]

Even on modern rifles, if they have sights at all (and if they're not peep sights), they are mounted in about the same position as they are on flintlock rifles. :wink:

 

[leam]

Not sure I see modern rifles with the sights that far forward. Enfield, M1A, M16, etc. Sights at or behind the chamber. I do like the idea of "balance point" and protecting it. Not sure that's the reason, but it sure sounds good!

 

[necchi]

Once you gain some experience shooting percussion or flint lock rifles you'll notice that the areas near the lock tend to get dirty or fouled with residue from the lock firing.
Also, with priming, capping, cocking the hammer, cleaning the pan and frizzen, replacing flints, etc,,, our hands and fingers are in and around the lock area. It kind of is/was simple reasoning to keep the rear sight away from that area a bit.
There's a thing called the "sight plane",, one of the factors is the available length or distance of said sight plane,, the longer barrels of most "long rifles" even the somewhat comparably short 28" barrels of our modern available hawken type rifles offer a much larger sight plane then the 16" of M14/16/AR. Comparison of the two isn't apples to oranges at all, it's two completely different realms.
You need to consider that sight placement on guns is/was studied in depth by the military of countries around the world as soon as using guns in war and putting sights on guns became an idea, they designed and used what's best. It wasn't that some individual gun maker in a cottage on the side of a mountain in Germany in 1665 just "decided" that's where he wanted to put the sight and everyone followed suit.

 

[Doug Lykins]

Try taping a sight near the breech, it's so blurry it is nearly worthless,(at least with my 60 year old eyes). Unlike common open sights, it is not necessary to see the aperture. With aperture sights you look through the peep and your eye naturally centers the front sight within the aperture.
I don't know that the dovetail being closer to the breech is all that big a deal, dovetails are only .040-.050" deep. There should be plenty of barrel wall left for BP pressures.

 

[Stophel]

Not sure I see modern rifles with the sights that far forward. Enfield, M1A, M16, etc. Sights at or behind the chamber. I do like the idea of "balance point" and protecting it. Not sure that's the reason, but it sure sounds good!

There are a whole lot of other "modern rifles" besides Enfields, M1A's and M16's. And again, those have peep sights, which work differently. A rear sight blade with a V or square notch is usually placed 15 or more inches ahead of the eye. On a cartridge rifle, that's on the barrel ahead of the receiver. On a muzzleloading rifle, that's around 10" or so from the breech, in the region of the lower ramrod pipe. :wink:

 

[StewartLeach]

Leam, the M1, M14/M1A and M16 family all feature aperture or "peep" rear sights. An aperture acts somewhat as a lens, sharpening the focus on the front sight, and the natural "center the top of the post in the aperture" instinct eliminates the need for the rear sight to be in focus. Indeed, the rear aperture should be blurry.

With "open top" rear sights we need the rear sight to be somewhat in focus so we can judge the centering of the front post horizontally, and the amount of post exposed vertically for elevation.

I coach a junior highpower rifle team, and occasionally help with adult clinics. I am continually surprised at how many people do not know to use metallic sights, open or aperture. So, they get to chant after me the "Shooter's Mantra":

Alignment (of the sights)
Focus (on the top of the front post)
Aim (your choice of sight picture, I coach COM)
Smooth (smoothly release the shot)
Follow (follow through)

 

[GANGGREEN]

As I've gotten older (I'm still "only" 50 now), and my eyes have gotten crummier, I've systematically and gradually decreased my acceptable range to shoot at deer to the point that I've limited my shots to 50-60 yards over the last several years. This summer I built myself a new deer rifle and put the rear sight farther forward than on any of my previous guns (just over 13" from the breech I think). It's as if the skies have opened up and heavenly choirs have begun to sing; I can see again.

I haven't had time to practice at the range beyond 50 yards yet, but at that range, I'm laying them in on top of each other and in sighting at random objects around my back yard, it's pretty obvious that 100 yard shots for me should be well within reach again (my longest kill was at a measured 125, but that was years ago and the deer didn't drop in its tracks for sure).

 

[rushlake1]

That's the truth spoken with good humor!
It's also the reason I have always preferred aperture (peep) sights on the tang with the front blade.
They are more accurate than open at any range and make aging eye have one less focal plane to adjust for.

---------------------------------------------

X2...Amen brother!

 

[smoothshooter]

If you haven't done so already, get a pair of " transition " bifocal lens glasses.

By slight movements of your head, you can fine tune to the sweet spot where you get a very useable sight picture with open sights.
You will have better luck with them if you have the people who make the lenses to put the center area of the transition area about 30 to 40 percent higher than they do for most people.

I have far-sightedness and astigmatism, and I am able to do pretty well out to several hundred yards with open sights with guns that are accurate that far.

I know some vision problems are not fixable to 20/20, but I am astounded at the number of people whose vision, near and far deteriorates to the point that they have to give up doing things they need to or want to do because they will not get glasses, or if they already wear them, will not stay after the optometrist ( or whatever ) about adjustments until they get an arrangement that works as good as possible. I probably know at least ten people who fit in that category.

 

[GANGGREEN]

If you haven't done so already, get a pair of " transition " bifocal lens glasses.

By slight movements of your head, you can fine tune to the sweet spot where you get a very useable sight picture with open sights.
You will have better luck with them if you have the people who make the lenses to put the center area of the transition area about 30 to 40 percent higher than they do for most people.

I have far-sightedness and astigmatism, and I am able to do pretty well out to several hundred yards with open sights with guns that are accurate that far.

I know some vision problems are not fixable to 20/20, but I am astounded at the number of people whose vision, near and far deteriorates to the point that they have to give up doing things they need to or want to do because they will not get glasses, or if they already wear them, will not stay after the optometrist ( or whatever ) about adjustments until they get an arrangement that works as good as possible. I probably know at least ten people who fit in that category.

Yep, I know that they're coming. The next time I'm at the eye doc (I go every year), I'll be asking him to fit me for transition bifocals.

 

[Vaino]

When locating a rear sight, hand comfort is an important factor. This is how I do it....the fully assembled rifle is held at the balance point w/ the hand and there's 2 choices....forward or aft of the hand. I opt for the forward position which locates the sight over some part of the entry pipe. Have found this varies slightly depending on the swamped bbl, but always over the entry pipe. Have had compliments from buyers as to the above rear sight location and never had a complaint. Perhaps my builds were purchased by "older folks" who need a longer distance to the rear sight...Fred

 

[GANGGREEN]

Yep, good advice Fred. I put the sights on my most recent build at a location where I can see them best (and for the first time in years and with many different rifles, I can see the sights WELL) and I just went to look and found that the rear sight was located just over the rear tab on the entry thimble like the photos you posted. That's where I'll put them all from this point forward. For what it's worth, it doesn't get in the way of my hand when I carry by the balance point of the rifle either.

 

[don hepler]

I spent most of my life as a machinist, but worked at Johnson & Johnson, when they developed the "Difinity" progressive lenses. They were cut on CNC lathes and polished on CNC, polishers. I learned a lot about glasses. "You get what you pay for." They exceed industry standards, use the most expensive and hardest coatings. If you aren't satisfied, they will replace them. I am 65 years old, and I can still shoot very well. A lot of practice helps as well. I change sights, on almost every gun, until I get the sight picture, that works for me.

Johnson and Johnson sold the "Difinity" line of glasses to Essilor. Same great product.

 

[Rifleman1776]

So us old farts can see them. :rotf: :rotf:

Correct. There is a saying that you can tell how old the owner of a rifle is by how far forward his rear sight is placed on the barrel. I have seen rifles with two and three filled in dovetails when the sights were moved forward. I need mine forward but use peeps at my club shoots.