Will a wet revolver fire?

[Kirby Jonas]

Howdy, folks,

I'm brand new to this website and very happy to be here. I write Western novels, including one from 2003 with actor Clint Walker, and I absolutely loathe the idea of putting a book out only to find out I got a "fact" wrong. So I have a question for y'all. If a man jumped in a river while carrying a couple of 1860 Colt .44 Armies, got dragged across by his horse with the guns submerged for, say, five minutes, would said guns fire or not? In my scenario, I made it look like they wouldn't, but if that isn't accurate I need to know now so I can make the correction. Thanks!

 

[Zonie]

IMO, it depends on luck.

The ball or bullet is pretty much a press fit into the chamber so it is unlikely that water would get to the powder.

If one of the percussion caps got water inside of it and it wet the priming compound the cap wouldn't fire when the hammer hit it.

If water didn't get inside the cap, there is no reason it wouldn't fire when the hammer hits it.

If the caps and nipples are compatible the caps are actually a light press fit on the tapered cone of the nipple so it isn't easy for water to get up inside the caps unless something like temperature is involved.

If the day was hot the gun would also be warm or hot. So would the air in the cylinders chamber full of powder.

The cold water would cool the metal which would result in the air inside of it cooling.

As the air in the chamber cooled it would contract creating a slight vacuum. This might be enough to suck some water up inside the cap which could cause a mis-fire.

I wouldn't want to bet the farm on it but if the wet dude had to shoot something with his gun after falling into the water I'm betting he could get at least 2 chambers to fire by repeatedly recocking and firing the gun.

 

[Kirby Jonas]

Jim, thank you for the great response. It will still work then. I will just make him have one or two misfires at first, which will be enough to cause his ensuing dilemma, and then later on he will find that some of the others will still fire. Thanks!

 

[cynthialee]

Not to long ago we had a member take his pistol apart, throw it in the dish pan with hot water for an hour only to discover when he got to it that his chambers were loaded.
He took it out to see if it would go off and they did.

If a pistol is properly loaded with tight caps and sealed chambers there is no reason why your heroes gun shouldn't go off on the first try.
If a properly loaded pistol chamber will stay sealed for an hour then I see no reason why 5 minutes would foul things.

Maybe: a smug bad guy, certain the gun ain't gonna go off getting a rude surprise when the hammer falls and kills his sorry butt would be more accurate?

 

[Dickydalton]

Read topic 280412 about Long Loaded guns. I was the poster that Cynthia talked about. Underwater for over an hour in warm soapy water and then brushed a bit. ALL 6 fired like normal!

 

[AZbpBurner]

While admirable to actually take the time to research these particular details with experienced shooters, in the interest of full disclosure, honesty, first hand experience, taxes may apply for internet sales, and whatever other legal mumbo jumbo I can gin up, you may want to step up to the firing line with your very own cap and ball revolver - just to get the real life feel of how it was done 150 years, and also since you would likely be able to write off the expense as research for your novel :thumbsup:

For a starting point, take a look at the Cabelas website - they often have sales & currently also offer $5 shipping. There are a couple of the brass-frame 1851's that come with a starter kit - you only need to add powder, primers ... and water. Sure it's not an 1860, but the mechanics are the same, and the feel of the recoil, the sound of ignition and the smell of the powder are best written of after experiencing firsthand.
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/bro...ype=GNP&recordsPerPage=60&WTz_srn=SeeAllItems

 

[Bob in iowa]

I'm with AZ, for $200 at Cabelas' you can get into black powder shooting and experience what your characters would feel.
I hate Western or Mountain Man stories that I can tell the author has no idea what they're talking about.
When I read a story, I want to smell the powder smoke, I want to feel the recoil, I want the gun to be empty when the hero needs it the most, but I don't want the hero to empty his gun then ride around the prairie for three days before he reloads it. I want the hero to pick up the bad guys guns after they don't need them anymore and put them in his saddle bags, just in case.
I read a story once where the hero was chased all over the Rockies by a bad guy shooting long range .40-120 Sharps.
The good guy had his S. Hawken .50. The good guy finally kills the bad guy and takes the Sharps. That was the last time in the book the Sharps was mentioned, and the hero could have used it a couple of times later on.
Sorry for ramblin on, but I like good Westerns.

 

[tenngun]

not a revolver but i fell from a canoe during a canoe shoot. had a cva mt pistol on.Jumped up form the pool and fired a shot from it. It was a hail mary,my flint rifle gun was in no mood to shoot after its bath.

 

[Snakebite]

How do you not know a cap and ball revolver is loaded especially when you take it apart? All you have to do is look in the chambers.

I think I'd keep an eye on that guy at the range.

 

[hawkeye2]

In the C&B era a savvy shootist would have packed the nipple recess in the cylinder with beeswax, lard or some other form of heavy grease to waterproof the chambers after capping specially if they didn't intend to shoot it for a time. In the scenario that you describe I might expect a reliability of 4 out of 5 if not 5 for 5.
I can't refer you to a source for that information right now but over a lifetime of reading and collecting I have seen reference to this in contemporary writings and have seen period photos of individuals with revolvers which definitely had some form of sealant packed over the caps.

 

[Billnpatti]

Welcome, Kirby. I really appreciate someone who does the needed research to avoid writing a scene that has no connection with reality. So, in answer to your question, I am of the opinion that in the period of which you are writing, the caps would have been the weakness. Modern caps will withstand a small bit of wetness but the caps in those days were subject to being ruined by getting them wet. The powder in the chambers could possibly have stayed dry since the balls are press fit into the chambers. Today, it is a common practice to put a sealing lubricant, such as Crisco, on top of the bullets in each chamber. However, in that time, it was not a common practice to do so. That being said, the ball, if properly press fit would still likely be expected to seal the water out of the chamber and the powder. That portion of the revolver would probably withstand a soaking such as you describe. This assumes that the caps all fit tightly on the nipples. A tight fit would be a proper assumption since a loose cap could jam the action of a revolver. The character, knowing this would be expected to properly seat each cap to prevent this from happening. Still, a tiny bit of water could seep around the cap and deactivate the compound contained within the cap. It is almost a certainty that the caps would most likely be ruined and yet protect the powder in the chambers.

This is a long way around to say that it is my opinion that a revolver, in that day and time, having been subjected to the soaking you describe, would likely not fire and your scene would be correct as written. I am also of the opinion that if your character were to blow any water off the caps and replace them, it is likely and believable that he could then fire his revolver. However, it might lend to the credibility if he were to have at least one chamber not fire. Perhaps have one or more misfires and yet be able to prevail.

 

[crockett]

I'm just thinking here- have no idea whatsoever, but from the few times I've messed with beeswax- the stuff ignites at 140 degrees- a really low temperature. I think sealing wax might have been used on the nipples but I don't know if that is true or what sealing wax is made from. In military cartridges I think they varnish over the primer area. In any event I use beewax as a resist on etching knife blades and the first time I melted some in a pan it kept igniting. Thought I'd mention it.

 

[Rick Son]

If it was Clint Walker it wouldn't matter! :shocked2: Been watchin him the last few days ,ther'es an autograph i need to ad to my collection!

 

[hawkeye2]

Would the ignition temperature of beeswax matter at all? It would only ignite when you busted a cap, possibly not even then, and its job would be done by then. I don't know what sealing wax is made up of but in my limited experience with it it melts and runs about like a good quality candle wax. I'll bet it would be good for waterproofing the nipples and a red color would look cool. An issue with using a wax that is too stiff is that it might absorb enough of the hammer's blow to prevent it from setting off a cap. I have an old Remington that was abused so much that it looks like an original. I wouldn't loose any sleep about dropping in in a bucket of water after I loaded it to give it a try someday.

 

[Zonie]

For what it's worth, beeswax softens at 90 degrees F, melts at 140 degrees F and ignites at 500 degrees F.
http://www.honeystonecandles.com/beeswaxfacts.htm

 

[Billnpatti]

Sealing wax is hard and brittle and not something I would want to put on my revolver nipples. If it was not applied exactly so, it would likely jam up the cylinder. Just a loose cap can do that so a gob of sealing wax could shut you down. No one who was depending on his revolver for his life would do anything that would jeopardize its proper function. :td: Bees wax is soft and could well jam up the cylinder, too. I am not an expert on the subject because 150 years ago I was just too young to remember how it was all done. :haha: But, common sense tells me that no sealant was used on a revolver's nipples. :nono: Not only would it be likely to jam the cylinder, it could well get into the nipple itself and prevent the flash from the cap from reaching the powder. :cursing: Like I say, I wasn't there but I just don't think great grandpappy dabbed anything on his revolver nipples. Muzzleloading pistols....possibly, rifles.....remote possibility but a revolver? Hmmmm.... :hmm: nope! :shake: Just don't buy it. I have never read of anyone doing anything like that, either. :idunno: Anyone have any credible documentation to the contrary? :hatsoff:

 

[Billnpatti]

Cyndi, Thanks for sharing your story about the friend's revolver going for a swim and still firing. I think I remember reading it on a previous post and am glad you shared it here. The one thing different is the modern caps are more moisture resistant than the old ones from back in the day. I have my doubts about the old caps surviving a dunking like he describes but it could be a possibility. I wasn't there way back then so I don't know for sure. :idunno: You have anecdotal evidence that modern caps will survive much longer than I would have thought. I only have slightly educated supposition to fall back on. I wish I had a can of the old caps so I could conduct an experiment to see if I am right. Lacking that, I expect that the character's revolver would likely misfire on at least one and possibly all chambers of his revolver. :hatsoff:

 

[Many Klatch]

I remember reading somewhere that General Robert E Lee's pistol was fired off some 5 years after the surrender. The cylinders were topped off with red wax.

If I was going off into the wilderness back in the day and I didn't expect to shoot very often but I would want my guns to go off when I needed it, I could see filling the cylinder with beeswax and sealing the caps to the nipples with oil paint applied to the outside.

I have heard of guys sealing the caps on their hunting rifles in today's world with fingernail polish to accomplish that very thing.

The beeswax and paint would be an unusual thing but it would work.

Many Klatch

 

[rafterob]

I think we should all stop hypothesizing, load up our revolvers and throw 'em in a bucket for five minutes and report our findings. Dismantled cylinders in a bucket of soapy water don't count :wink:

 

[crockett]

Hawkeye: what I was thinking is that the flame of beeswax might lap over to another nipple and cause a chain firing BUT I have no idea- just thinking.
On the 500 degree flash- all I know is that I heated some beeswax to paint on a knife blade as a resist. I used a medium setting on the stove and the wax didn't lap over the sides of the pan but it kept flaring up, I had to keep the temperature really low.
On waxing the nipple area- I agree that it would be a mess to clean up. A lot of plumbing fittings are metal to metal "crush" type deals and maybe a properly fitting cap pushed firmly on a nipple is all that is needed.