Wont lock without setting trigger

[T4halo1]

My new to me Vincent rifle wont lock the hammer without first setting the set trigger. Is this normal?

Thanks, T4

 

[BoomStick]

Generally not normal and not desirable. Lots of threads here on the fix, which is commonly shimming the trigger, filing a bit of the trigger bar or checking if the lock is contacting wood in the mortice. If it works correctly out of the gun, it's one of those. If it won't hold half cock out of the gun, the sear or tumbler may be worn.

 

[IanH]

Not normal. Making some assumptions, it sounds like the rear trigger is putting pressure on the sear, keeping it from engaging. The rear trigger acts like a hammer and trips the sear bar through inertia only, the spring should stop putting pressure directly on it before it touches the sear bar so the sear bar can move freely at all times. Depending on how the trigger group is made you either remove metal from the rear trigger where the big spring nose touches it, from the spring nose itself, from the top of the rear trigger bar, adjust a spring stop, or drill and tap the plate for a set screw which can be threaded up through the bottom so it halts the follow-through of the spring just before the rear trigger touches the sear bar.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Some meant for target shooting are made this way, it eliminates the need for a fly in the lock.

 

[OLUT]

My new to me Vincent rifle wont lock the hammer without first setting the set trigger. Is this normal?

Thanks, T4

This is NOT an unusual situation .... I have several original percussion guns that were made to have the trigger "set" before cocking the hammer. But you can check your gun per previous guidance if desired. I personally refrain from removing the trigger assembly on OLD guns to prevent any possible marring, but if yours is a contemporary piece, the parts should come apart without much trouble

 

[Grenadier1758]

Having the triggers only operate set and eliminating the half cock notch are often features of rifles built for target shooting only. While this is not desirable for hunting and is not common in modern muzzleloaders, as @Phil Coffins states, for a target rifle the need to fire unset is not needed. Eliminating the half cock notch means the hammer has a shorter fall and stronger spring for faster ignition. In a target shoot situation, the rifle will only be fully ready to fire at the firing line, be it prone over a log, resting on a plank or table. We see many of these old over the log (chunk gun) specialty rifles built that way.

 

[T4halo1]

If I set the trigger the hammer will go to half cock. Then it will allow me to go to full cock.

Tony

 

[Bad Karma]

Maybe pull the lock and look for a fly in the tumbler.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

I have a .58 (thanks to Bobby Hoyt, formerly .54) plains rifle that has a trigger that needs to be set before cocking. It was strange at first, but it works well. I have to cock it to set it a half-cock to put a cap on. But it will not fire from that position. Pull to full cock, and it fires nicely.
Re-set to go to half-cock to pull the cap, wipe, re-load, cap, pull to full cock, and fire. Different from my others, but highly serviceable.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[solitare1340]

I just fixed this same issue on an older rifle that I bought a couple of weeks ago. On mine the problem was solved by shimming the trigger assembly down slightly. It works perfectly now.

 

[Grenadier1758]

If I set the trigger the hammer will go to half cock. Then it will allow me to go to full cock.

Tony

This is telling me that the trigger plate is inlet too deep in the trigger mortis in the stock or the set trigger lever spring is lifting the set trigger lever too high preventing the sear from entering the half cock or full cock notch. You will likely have to remove the trigger group to adjust the set trigger lever spring or shim the trigger plate out.

 

[IanH]

@Phil Coffins and @Grenadier1758 , thank you for mentioning that. I've fixed two rifles that came to me with this problem, neither was a target rifle, one was an original Ohio rifle so I'm told and the other a wallhanger built from original and contemporary parts as best I can tell in the late 1960's or so, whenever that poison green maple stain was still a thing. Anyway, I scoured the internet and bought several books on the subject, also inquiring to several friends who know flintlocks and in the end I more or less had to figure out the problem for myself. D. Taylor Sapergia (sp?) on the other board had an excellent post describing the proper function of a double-set trigger and the common issues and fixes which pointed me in the right direction. Each of my problem rifles had rifle had its own issues, one had no room to further file the bars down and the other had the trigger assembly inletted too far back so only the very tip of the trigger bar touched the sear bar, and at a very steep angle at that.

Never did I come across anyone mentioning target rifles, locks without flys, or anything other than "some of the old rifles were made this way" coming up a time or two. Anyway, thank you both for adding that little bit of knowledge to my repertoire.

 

[Phil Coffins]

I live to serve.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Me too.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

I Only Stand and Serve Yours, FOOTMAN..

 

[French Colonial]

I have a Jeager rifle that you must set the rear trigger in order to get the cock to go to full cock, works fine, just a little muscle memory and after a couple of shots you don't even think about it. no big deal.

 

[rkg1]

I have a Homer Dangler rifle that was built that way. Just a little getting used to but works well.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I bought a very nice flint pistol. It was on the trade blanket all weekend. No one wanted it as it could not be cocked. People would pick it up, try to cock it and set it back on the blanket. I was looking at it shortly before things were to be packed away and the seller made a very reasonable offer. I thought about things. I pushed the trigger forward to lower the trigger levers and felt a click. I pulled the hammer to full cock and it held. I agreed to the price and yeah, there's still some issues with the trigger pull. But it sure is otherwise a very nice pistol.

 

[necchi]

Uhm,(?) just a share? Maybe take the lock out and clean it/lube it?
Same with the trigger set?
(and look if there's a fly in the lock?)(or see if it's a single set trigger?)

 

[CaptainVane]

The latest Muzzeloaders magazine has an article where the author talks about his Ohio Vincent rifle, and the Vincent father and son that built them thru the 1800’s but no pictures. Says they are very rare.
Some pictures would be appreciated.