X-ray of a drowned Bess

[cebusey]

Was just wondering, might the powder still be dry?

I do not know about this musket but a cannon was recovered from a ship wreck near Roanoke that sank earlier than this musket and when found it was still loaded and the powder was dry.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I do not know about this musket but a cannon was recovered from a ship wreck near Roanoke that sank earlier than this musket and when found it was still loaded and the powder was dry.

What is the source of your information?

 

[Britsmoothy]

So why isn't it called ball and buck?

 

[cebusey]

What is the source of your information?

My answer depends on the motive of your question. If it was meant to learn more about it - then it was from my direct visual observation of the museum's display and the museum staffer's verbal details. I saw this approximately 25 years ago.
If your question was meant to troll/cast doubt on my veracity - then my answer is best not posted here.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The two loads screams "poorly trained loyalist troops"

To me, it is a similar situation found with many CW muskets that have multiple loads. In the heat of battle the frightened solider may not know if his rifle fired or not and just reloaded. Yes, "poor training" could be blamed but, I suspect, the shell shock effect would be the more dominant factor.
BTW, I am always impressed with Dave Person's eye for detail.

 

[oreclan]

Very cool!
I always thought the ball was behind the buck shot. Not so !

Having fired live cartridges, it seemed easier after the cartridge is torn open, and the powder is poured down the barrel; it is easier to invert the cartridge and insert the unopened end first.
The torn end otherwise must be gathered together and shoved into the muzzle.

It is..., in the cartridge. When you load a lot of troops would not invert the cartridge, but simply insert and allow the powder to pour by gravity while they were grabbing the rammer. Fast but can make for a problem IF the lad is ordered to pull his load, when trying to snag the cartridge with a worm.

NOT sure how they ID'd the musket to be an SLP Bess. The two loads screams "poorly trained loyalist troops" and they were not armed with the newest and best Bess. The shape of the side plate might be a clue, but the angle is off to be able to take a hard look, as the differences between the side plates can be subtle, if one cannot see if the side plate is rounded or not.

LD

Look at the triggerguard profile. You tell it is a second model.

 

[maillemaker]

If you read the period loading drills, there is no mention of inverting the cartridge after dumping the powder. So the cartridges should be inserted into the muzzle tail-end-first (not bullet-end-first).

This X-ray is interesting because clearly the buck-and-ball cartridge was rammed home bullet-end-first, which is contrary to loading instructions.

 

[Relic shooter]

View attachment 243052
“This is a CT scan x-ray image of a Brown Bess musket, believed to be a 1769 short land pattern, that was recovered in 2012 by LAMP (Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program) archaeologists from the Storm Wreck, a colonial period shipwreck believed to have wrecked on 31 December 1782. This vessel was likely from the final fleet to evacuate Loyalist refugees and British troops from Charleston to St. Augustine at the end of the American Revolution. The x-ray shows that this musket was loaded with the "buck and ball" commonly used by American Rebels (and in this case, by British redcoats). The Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program is the research arm of the St. Augustine Lighthouse & Museum. Photograph should be attributed to Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program.”

Very cool historical photo !!
Relic shooter

 

[smoothshooter]

No chance of that.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

It appears to be at full **** which is another indication that it was last handled during a battle.

 

[stephenprops1]

Very cool!
I always thought the ball was behind the buck shot. Not so !

What difference would it make?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Having the ball behind the buck shot would have the effect of the heavier ball pushing through the shot column opening up the pattern in much the same way as a heavy oil soaked cushion wad opens a shot pattern making a hole in the center of the pattern. On a battlefield it would probably not make much difference. This may well be something to try on a future range visit.

 

[Joemolf]

Very cool!
I always thought the ball was behind the buck shot. Not so !

I have purchased a few buck and ball kits from Jefferson Arsenal. I typically follow directions and did in the case of this example.buck followed by ball followed by powder. I believe theirs a military reference manual out there that instructs the same. I have actually loaded them both weighs because many do. But when I make them currently the buck is always on the top as the British illustrate. Besides I like the fact that the ball pushes the buck. It seems to me with the ball forward the buck won’t accelerate as well there is nothing supporting it. Right wrong or indifferent these babies work and be it ball or buck you wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end.

 

[Joemolf]

I just took these two shots using Brown Bess with Buck and balli made for my Charleville so the ball is a little small for the Bess as is the buck regardless they work. They were fired from 35 yards. The buck made i say equivalent impact dimples on the plate I can see the dimple in the plate from the buck in both shots I took. The second shot the buck flew more right the first left. These results look equivalent to the test Mike Bellevue achieved in his demo of buck and ball but he had larger paper targets so he was able to see where the other balls hit. But what i am showing is that the plate has a nice dimple. Yes a complete test would include the buck and ball reversed. That i will do next time. I have to hit the road.

 

[MSW]

View attachment 243052
“This is a CT scan x-ray image of a Brown Bess musket, believed to be a 1769 short land pattern, that was recovered in 2012 by LAMP (Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program) archaeologists from the Storm Wreck, a colonial period shipwreck believed to have wrecked on 31 December 1782. This vessel was likely from the final fleet to evacuate Loyalist refugees and British troops from Charleston to St. Augustine at the end of the American Revolution. The x-ray shows that this musket was loaded with the "buck and ball" commonly used by American Rebels (and in this case, by British redcoats). The Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program is the research arm of the St. Augustine Lighthouse & Museum. Photograph should be attributed to Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program.”

way cool! thanks for the post

 

[Johnnyntrain]

Having fired live cartridges, it seemed easier after the cartridge is torn open, and the powder is poured down the barrel; it is easier to invert the cartridge and insert the unopened end first.
The torn end otherwise must be gathered together and shoved into the muzzle.

Look at the triggerguard profile. You tell it is a second model.

My experience exactly. Somewhere I heard or read that Americans loaded open end first and the French were taught to invert non buck n ball cartridges .

 

[Joemolf]

My experience exactly. Somewhere I heard or read that Americans loaded open end first and the French were taught to invert non buck n ball cartridges .

Roger agreed either way is going to spit all out; my question is does it have a relationship to velocity when the buck is sitting on the ball or vice versa. I think the buck has to be it shot over the ball or shot over a thick card/cork even tow to get the most performance. Next time I am home I will try ball over buck and see if I get the same dimples from the buck shot. Cheers!

 

[maillemaker]

One thing about loading the cartridges "tail end first" is you get the bulk of the paper crumpled up between the bullets and the powder. This probably forms more of a seal for the exploding gasses. If the paper wadding was on top of the bullets, this sealing effect would be lost. But, with the large paper-patched ball on top of the powder, the effect is probably minimal.

With a plain buckshot cartridge, however, it may be beneficial to have wadding between the powder and the shot.

 

[maillemaker]

This is from Von Steuben's Drill. It is very similar to the British 1764 Manual of Arms, from which it was probably derived.

THE MANUAL EXERCISE

I. Poise- Firelock! Two motions.

1st With your left hand turn the firelock briskly, bringing the lock to the front, at the same instant seize it with the right hand just below the lock, keeping the piece perpendicular.

2d. With a quick motion bring up the firelock from the shoulder directly before the face, and seize it with the left hand just above the lock, so that the little finger may rest upon the feather spring, and the thumb lie on the stock; the left hand must be of an equal height with the eyes.


II. ****- Firelock! Two motions

1st Turn the barrel opposite to your face, and place your thumb upon the ****, raising the elbow square at this motion.

2d. **** the firelock by drawing down your elbow, immediately placing your thumb upon the breech-pin, and the fingers under the guard.


III. Take Aim! One motion

Step back about six inches with the right foot, bring the left toe to the front; at the same time drop the muzzle, and bring up the butt end of the firelock against your right shoulder; place the left hand forward on the swell of the stock, and the fore-finger of the right hand before the trigger; sinking the muzzle a little below a level, and with the right eye looking along the barrel.


IV. Fire! One motion.

Pull the trigger briskly, and immediately after bringing up the right foot, come to the priming position, placing the heels even, with the right toe pointing the right, the lock opposite the right breast, the muzzle directly to the front and as high as the hat, the left hand just forward of the feather spring, holding the piece firm and steady; and at the same time seize the **** with the fore-finger and thumb of the right hand, the back of the hand turned up.


V. Half-****- Firelock! One motion.

Half bend the **** briskly, bringing down the elbow to the butt of the firelock.


VI. Handle- Cartridge! One motion.

Bring your right hand short round to your pouch, flapping it hard, seize the cartridge, and bring it with a quick motion to your mouth, bite the top off down to the powder, covering it instantly with your thumb, and bring the hand as low as the chin, with the elbow down.


VII. Prime! One motion.

Shake the powder into the pan, and covering the cartridge again, place the three last fingers behind the hammer, with the elbow up.


VIII. Shut- Pan! Two motions

1st. Shut your pan briskly, bringing down the elbow to the butt of the firelock, holding the cartridge fast in your hand.

2d. Turn the piece nimbly round before you to the loading position, with the lock to the front, and the muzzle at the height of the chin, bringing the right hand up under the muzzle; both feet being kept fast in this motion.


IX. Charge with Cartridge! Two motions.

1st. Turn up your hand and put the cartridge into the muzzle, shaking the powder into the barrel.

2d. Turning the stock a little towards you, place your right hand closed, with a quick and strong motion, upon the butt of the rammer, the thumb upwards, and the elbow down.


X. Draw- Rammer! Two motions.

1st. Draw your rammer with a quick motion half-out, seizing it instantly at the muzzle back-handed.

2d. Draw it quite out, turn it, and enter it into the muzzle.


XI. Ram down- Cartridge! One motion

Ram the cartridge well down the barrel, and instantly recovering and seizing the rammer back-handed by the middle, draw it quite out, turn it, and enter it as far as the lower pipe, placing at the same time the edge of the hand on the butt-end of the rammer, with the fingers extended.


XII. Return- Rammer! One motion.

Thrust the rammer home, and instantly bring up the piece with the left hand to the shoulder, seizing it at the same time with the right hand under the ****, keeping the left hand at the swell, and turning the body square to the front.

The relevant entry is section IX - Charge With Cartridge (two motions).

You will note that you bring your hand, with cartridge up to the muzzle. At this point, you are holding it with the tail end pointing upwards, held between your thumb and forefinger, with the ball end nestled in the palm of the hand, held with the remaining fingers.

You then turn your hand 180 degrees (palm outward is mentioned in later manuals, but this is clearly the same, as you can't turn your hand 180 degrees inward) to dump the powder down the barrel, while simultaneously putting the cartridge into the muzzle.

Note here that you are dumping the powder and inserting the cartridge at the same time. There is no mention of reversing the cartridge. You dump the powder and put the cartridge into the barrel in one motion.

So, by the book, smoothbore muzzle loading cartridges were supposed to be loaded tail-first down the muzzle.

Again, this X-ray is interesting because clearly this cartridge was inverted before being inserted into the muzzle.