Yorktown to San Jacinto

[Hamourkiller]

If any group of people can answere this question, it will be this one!

Question: What personal muzzle loading weapon could reasonably have served at the Battle of Yorktown and at the Battle of San Jacinto? Each Battle effectively ended each Countries independance revolution with victory. So what one shoulder fired gun would capture the fighting spirit of these Patriots who fought in these battles?

Thanks for any information in advance! I will use this information on having a PC gun built. SO I want to get it right for sure.
Hank

PS: While reading about the battle of San Jacinto several years ago, I learned of another cross over weapon that fought in both wars. When the Mexicans retreated into the flood waters of Buffalo Bayou screaming:

I no Alamo! :shake:
I no Goliad! :shake:

The Texicans guns soon became so hot they could not fire them. So they climbed on top of the dead Mexican soldiers to get to the live ones, and screaming:

Remember the Alamo! :cursing:
Remember Goliad! :cursing:

put the good ole Tomahawk to deadly use.

 

[Swampman]

The Brown Bess Musket would be my guess.

 

[Gary]

Brown Bess. Our side would have carried some at Yorktown (besides Charlevilles and homegrown muskets with parts from the wreckage of battlefield pick-ups) and at San Jacinto, the Mexicans would have had the Bess. By the time of the latter battle, American Army (not involved) had their own Harper's Ferry musket (but the Tejanos at San Jacinto had plenty of rifles).

 

[J.D.]

Corwallis surrendered in 1781, and the Alamo fell in 1836, and the styling of rifles changed quite a bit in that 55 years. The styling and architecture of Rev War guns didn't look anything like guns made in the 1820's and 1830's.

IF you want a gun that would be correct for either of these times, it would be best to have an erlier gun built, and use it for a later time period.

This page has some photos of early styles of rifles. [url] http://www.cabincreek.net/custom_muzzleloading.html[/url]

Check out the Semi-Custom Gun Kits link at the top of the same page.

Check out these rifles, or a colonial fowling piece. I personally like Silver's version of the VA rifle.[url] http://www.flintlocks.com/[/url]

Run a search on "brown bess musket", though I doubt that any of the defenders of the Alamo would have used the bess. Mexico bought up Englands obsolete brown bess muskets to arm their army. I suspect that the voluteers at the Alamo were armed with personal rifles and fowling pieces.

J.D.

 

[mikelange]

J.D. --

The only problem with your theory is that, while the Mexicans were the ones using obsolete brown besses, by the time the Alamo fell (for at least the second time) on March 6, 1836, the Texians and Mexicans had been fighting for several months. Defended by General Cos (or was he a colonel? -- irrelevant in the context of this post), the Alamo had fallen to the Texians the previous year, and munitions in the fort/church were captured. It would actually be surprising to find that none of the Mexicans' arms ended up in the hands of the garrison that Santa Anna had put to the sword.

Now, the idea of someone coming from the States with a brown bess is, maybe, a little more far-fetched -- given the amount of time that had elapsed since the Revolutionary War -- but it's still not out of the question. I won't speculate on the percentage, but a number of emigrants to Texas were ne'er-do-wells, or men down on their luck, and something along the lines of an antique English musket might have been all the more gun a man in that position had to his name.

All speculation, of course. One's acceptance of my point -- or someone else's -- lies in the degree to which they prefer something being "likely" as opposed to simply "possible".

 

[davy]

J.D. --

The only problem with your theory is that, while the Mexicans were the ones using obsolete brown besses, by the time the Alamo fell (for at least the second time) on March 6, 1836, the Texians and Mexicans had been fighting for several months. Defended by General Cos (or was he a colonel? -- irrelevant in the context of this post), the Alamo had fallen to the Texians the previous year, and munitions in the fort/church were captured. It would actually be surprising to find that none of the Mexicans' arms ended up in the hands of the garrison that Santa Anna had put to the sword.

Now, the idea of someone coming from the States with a brown bess is, maybe, a little more far-fetched -- given the amount of time that had elapsed since the Revolutionary War -- but it's still not out of the question. I won't speculate on the percentage, but a number of emigrants to Texas were ne'er-do-wells, or men down on their luck, and something along the lines of an antique English musket might have been all the more gun a man in that position had to his name.

All speculation, of course. One's acceptance of my point -- or someone else's -- lies in the degree to which they prefer something being "likely" as opposed to simply "possible".

Hola amigos ...

Fact is according to some official sources several hundred muskets (i.e. Brown Bess) were captured and recorded as munitions in the stores that were in the Alamo during the final battle on March 6th. These are accepted as arms that were garnered from Cos and company when the Alamo capitulated in December of the year before. There are some accumulated Mexican forces official reports in Hanson's "Alamo Reader" that render this information.

The black powder for these weapons were of a very poor Mexican form. But ... there were enuff weapons avail for each defender to have several at his disposal .. had he a mind to use them. The truth of the matter is a long rifle would have made a very poor weapon of choice in the early predawn( read that dark thirty) hours .. since no distance could you see to effectively use the range of the rifled gun, and even a worse club! Not to mention the lack of a close quarters attachment such as a bayonet lug.

Knife or hatchet against a 6ft plus Bess witha sharp pointy thing on the end? No contest! :cursing:

We have have discussed this issue ad infinum on the Alamo Film Site ... fact is the final battle was very up close and personal .. just tha ticket for bayonet work. As much of a fan of Davy Crockett swingin ol Betsy as I am (My namesake)Clubbed longrifles were most likely used ina pinch(as well as athe proverbial kitchen utensils :hmm: ) ... but so were bayoneted Besses. Not to mention the faster reload time, and devastating destructive power of "buck n ball" in a smooth bore when compared with a patched round ball (or even unpatched).

The story of the Alamo, and its preconceived ideas is still evolving, the Texian and Tejano defenders are all my heroes, but I think they were smart enuff to use what worked best for them, even if thye sacrificed there lives in the process. Heroes all!

Davy

 

[mikelange]

Davy --

I agree with you on all points. We're having much the same trouble letting go of the idea of the men at the Alamo using primarily longrifles, as at one time our type of shooter/history buff had letting go of the notion that the American Revolution was fought and won primarily with those same wonderful (but, for military purposes, rather unsuitable) longrifles. And, re your comments about the "reach" that a bayonet-equipped musket would have given a man in hand-to-hand fighting -- I really liked the handling of Bowie's death in the latest film version of The Alamo. I'd be willing to bet none of the men who killed him were anywhere near within reach of his knife as they turned him into a human pincushion.

Sorry. Morbid humor. Bad taste.

Given that the weapons are totally wrong, as well as the overall numbers of men involved and a hundred other details -- the final shootout in "The Wild Bunch" was probably, at least in spirit and sheer bloodiness, as close to what the actual last minutes of the Alamo fight were like, as anything that's ever been put on film. Given my druthers, in 1836, knowing how the siege was likely to end, I'd have had as many of the period versions of sawed-off shotguns as I could get my grubby paws on.

Thanks for your many well-thought-out and knowledgeable posts about the Alamo. Disney's version of the story is what got me where I am today, in terms of muzzleloading, and the story has always fascinated me. I'm old enough and, I hope, wise enough, now, to want to die a quiet death at a ripe, obnoxious old age -- but I would still have to say that, given the certainty of going out prematurely and only the choice of when and where -- it would have been at the Alamo.

 

[thomas]

I agree with you on all as well Davy! :thumbsup:

Thomas

 

[Hamourkiller]

Thanks for all of the great posts and shared knowledge. As always when talking about the Texas revolution the Battle of San Jacinto is over shadowed by the heroics of the Alamo. The following is borrowed from the San Jacinto Museum.

Pistol
There were more long guns than pistols used at San Jacinto. But American-made pistols, British exports, and Spanish pistolas were no doubt being heard and felt by both sides. This presence of pistols in Mexican Texas was augmented by the continuing practice of settling disputes via duel.

Blunderbuss
A blunderbuss is a short-range musket with a flared muzzle, like a trumpet. Some of Juan Seguín’s Tejano soldiers may have carried a blunderbuss passed down from their Spanish colonial forefathers.

Brown Bess
The India Pattern Brown Bess was an English musket that was standard issue among Mexican soldiers. In the 1820s, Mexico had purchased a number of them from British arms dealers. A solid weapon at close range, both sides likely put large-caliber muskets to use in the field at San Jacinto.

Rifle
Both hunting and military rifles saw wide service at San Jacinto on all sides. It was the preferred weapon of Texian pioneers who had migrated from the United States, with a long barrel and stock. Rifle quality varied, from the British Bakers issued to the Mexican army to the backwoods hunting rifles of Kentucky.

Carbine
A carbine is a shorter version of the long rifle or musket. Soldiers fighting on horseback preferred the carbine to their more cumbersome counterparts. The Mexican Cavalry were issued large caliber carbines.

Musket
A musket is a smoothbore gun, shot from the shoulder, which saw wide use during Mexican and Texian colonial times. It’s different from a rifle in that rifles have spiral cut grooves within the barrel (known as rifling).

Soldiers using a musket, rather than a rifle, could only be confident of hitting an enemy at 50 yards or so.

San Jacinto Museum of History © 2003

Long Rifle or BrownBess seems to be a reasonable choice. Thanks again fellows.

PS: Another quote from a museum site
The casualties, according to Houston's official report, numbered 630 Mexicans killed, 208 wounded, and 730 taken prisoner. As against this heavy score, only nine Texans were killed or mortally wounded, and thirty wounded less seriously.