Can You Help?

I know myself well enough to use caution with this subject. I could go off on a rant very easily, you see I believe the MM crowd are nothing but a bunch of opportunist who are ruining what were once primitive weapons seasons.

I shoot real muzzleloaders quite often at a club range and I get my share of spectators. A couple of days before one of our early muzzleloader season were to open I was approached by regular requesting I help some guy getting ready to sight in his new muzzleloader. I'm not going to belabor you with all the details but it was exactly what I thought. The fellow had his new MM laid out complete with plastic skirted projectiles, pellets and 209 type primers. He was going hunting with a muzzleloader for the first time in a couple of days. He wanted me to give him a lesson and I listened to his pitch. I told him the truth, I know nothing about the MM so there really wasn't anything I could do for him. I then groused a bit to the guy who suggested I help the guy explaining my distain for the MM hoping he'll not offer my assistance to any MM shooters again.

Supply and demand, I think one reason we're having trouble finding loading components, caps, flints and real blackpowder is manufactures are focusing MM shooters.

It's been a sore subject with me since the 70's when some of those damn things first started to show up. They're nothing but gamers taking advantage of what was supposed to be a primitive weapons hunt by using modern rifles. In my mind they're no different than the second class male athletes becoming "women" to win the game. They can shoot the things all they want to but let them do it with the modern guns where they belong.

The Fish & Game departments cater to the almighty dollar. As long as people buy tags and licenses they don't care about much else. Make anything easy enough and it will eventually be destroyed by lazy people.

DCAN said:

The Fish & Game departments cater to the almighty dollar. As long as people buy tags and licenses they don't care about much else. Make anything easy enough and it will eventually be destroyed by lazy people.

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Exactly. And the sad part is, hardly anyone manufactures trad ML nowadays. So the situation will only get worse. Even if more manufactures started building them I doubt many folks would buy them. The trad sport is too much work and most everyone nowadays wants things quick and easy. I clearly remember back in the day before those things came out. So many people had all kinds of issues with trad ML, mostly due to them not following proper procedures.

Last year my son (who is not over energetic) called me asking if I could find him a new one of those type ML, set it up and getting it sighted in for him. After I had it all lined out, it was shooting 1" to 1.25" groups at 100 yards. It shoots every bit as good, if not better, than many of the unmentionables out today. And with a 240 grain hollow point, it definitely does the damage. IMO they have become nothing more than another form of high power rifles. No wonder the early ML season in KY is only one weekend long.

Its all about selling tags and keeping hunting profitable and alive.

On the other side of the coin, according to many, we are, and have been, losing the number of hunters every year. Many younger people would rather sit in a warm house and play on their phones.

I didn't mind too much as long as they still required a primer vs sealed electronic ignition, scopes allowed on them (exception for medical need OK), and now worse, basically a breach loader trying to evade the requirement of loading through the muzzle. Early versions, other than being inline ignition, were not all that much different in skills required, especially with open sights.

New versions with all the "enhancements" and laws changing to allow optics for those that don't "need" them now make them nothing more than a single shot high powered long range rifle.

I could care less if someone wants to use one...just not in what was meant to be a "primitive" weapons season (which it certainly is NOT anymore!)

But the crybabies wanting in on a special restricted season, no matter how, will never end. Same with bow season. Someday in the future I fully expect "hunters" will shoot remotely from their lazyboy while watching the "big game" (football as well as the deer on their iphone). Yeah...it's not legal now, but many other forms weren't before either.

Spikebuck said:

I didn't mind too much as long as they still required a primer vs sealed electronic ignition, scopes allowed on them (exception for medical need OK), and now worse, basically a breach loader trying to evade the requirement of loading through the muzzle. Early versions, other than being inline ignition, were not all that much different in skills required, especially with open sights.

New versions with all the "enhancements" and laws changing to allow optics for those that don't "need" them now make them nothing more than a single shot high powered long range rifle.

I could care less if someone wants to use one...just not in what was meant to be a "primitive" weapons season (which it certainly is NOT anymore!)

But the crybabies wanting in on a special restricted season, no matter how, will never end. Same with bow season. Someday in the future I fully expect "hunters" will shoot remotely from their lazyboy while watching the "big game" (football as well as the deer on their iphone). Yeah...it's not legal now, but many other forms weren't before either.

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I remember reading about remote killing being done quite some time ago. I think it was on private ranches, maybe Texas?

I really didn’t mind the early ones that had exposed ignition with a traditional percussion cap, as there are a few historical examples of inlines. But the new stuff has gone WAY too far. If I had my way , flintlock or wheellock, even matchlock ONLY!!

Not that I agree with the in-line guns but are they not muzzle loaders. they load from the muzzle, Better than some idiot using a under powered BP pistol. What's really the difference say between using a 209-type primer in one of those and using a 209 or CF primer on a side locked percussion gun because one cannot find regular percussion caps. What's the difference in a scoped in-line and a scoped CVA because our eyes are failing as we age. What's the difference in using various types of non-BP propellent pellets in those when we talk of using the same propellants in the more traditional guns, if we cannot find regular BP and then some still use the subs, We should face the piper and welcome these types of hunters for if we stand alone the craft as we know it will surely fail in the coming years. Not saying those types should be discussed in the site but then not looked at like ya been gut shot either, were getting older and the younger generation of BP hunters are embracing the new technology, how many hunting shows you see where traditional vs in-line BP guns are used. next time you're out hunting and if any other hunters are around take a look at what they're using and not just the guys in your inner circle. Sometimes we are own worst enemies.

Back in the 1970s I read an article by a guy that was shooting a .50 BAR round from this heavy bench gun. He would ‘hunt’ by setting up a rest on a hill side with clear lines of sight of several miles. And shoot at a thousand yards.
I thought it disgusting
Till I got to the end of the article.
He addressed my concerns. And asked the question of how a shot from a guy who knew his gun and how it would work at different ranges and weather conditions so he could shoot, and make a clean kill at eight hundred yards was different then a shot on an equally unsuspecting deer from a bow at fifteen yards.
In both cases the hunter is unknown to the deer, and the deer is taken by surprise.
I didn’t have an answer.
I have taken to smoothbore and flint. I hunt from a natural blind at ground level, found near a trail where I waylay the deer.
My shooting isn’t effected by any one else and what they shoot.
I’ve voluntarily diminished my use of a rifle, sacrificing fifty yards.
A minie ball gun can in the hands of a guy who knows his gun can easily kill a deer at three hundred yards. It’s fully ‘traditional’ but well outclasses my fusil.
Joe with a in-line isn’t going to cost me a hunt, any more then a cross bow or compound cost a longbowmans hunt .
An AR in the hands of a local Nimrod won’t change my hunting.
In lines are not in my opinion needed or good, they are not real ml. But if those shooters help keep me in the deer woods with their fees that’s ok with me

appalichian hunter said:

Not that I agree with the in-line guns but are they not muzzle loaders. they load from the muzzle, Better than some idiot using a under powered BP pistol. What's really the difference say between using a 209-type primer in one of those and using a 209 or CF primer on a side locked percussion gun because one cannot find regular percussion caps. What's the difference in a scoped in-line and a scoped CVA because our eyes are failing as we age. What's the difference in using various types of non-BP propellent pellets in those when we talk of using the same propellants in the more traditional guns, if we cannot find regular BP and then some still use the subs, We should face the piper and welcome these types of hunters for if we stand alone the craft as we know it will surely fail in the coming years. Not saying those types should be discussed in the site but then not looked at like ya been gut shot either, were getting older and the younger generation of BP hunters are embracing the new technology, how many hunting shows you see where traditional vs in-line BP guns are used. next time you're out hunting and if any other hunters are around take a look at what they're using and not just the guys in your inner circle. Sometimes we are own worst enemies.

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The difference is they are no longer traditional. They are categorized as muzzleloaders that are basically a modern firearm high powered rifle.

Personally, I do not care either way. Other than a very few special hunts available in a few states, the traditional aspect of ML hunting is over.

I used to own one of the newer fandango ML and sold it. Just wasn't my thing. However, IF my vision continues to degrade, to the point I am no longer able to see well enough to shoot open sights, I would consider going back to one rather than basterdizing a sidelock by mounting a scope on it.

But that's just me.

I apologize for my ignorance, but what is an MM? I’m inferring that it means an inline that shoots sabots or maybe has a sealed breech, but what does the MM stand for?

Thanks!

Notchy Bob

Notchy Bob said:

I apologize for my ignorance, but what is an MM? I’m inferring that it means an inline that shoots sabots or maybe has a sealed breech, but what does the MM stand for?

Thanks!

Notchy Bob

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I think it's Modern Muzzleloader.

In Missouri, our law was written a long time ago and simply refers to muzzleloaders. There were only traditional side locks, underhammers, and mule ear locks at the time. A fellow names Knight figured out he could follow the letter of the law and make it something it was not originally intended to be. Rather than change the law then, it obviously was ignored until they couldn't ignore it any longer.

The whole MM thing took off just like compound bows took off. Basically for the same reason. They were easier to operate.

Now there are so many of them, they are the majority of all muzzleloaders by a wide margin. Plus every other niche group decided they wanted a slice of the pie complete with their own season. The solution in Missouri is now the Alternative Methods season. Basically anything other than a center fire rifle is legal, from MM to atl-atl to handgun. Face it, we are a small minority now. There is no way to keep a traditional muzzleloader season outside the moderns.

I don't pay any attention to the MM thing, nor do I ever give any thought toward them unless I see a thread here that mentions them. I'm just content to be able to hunt with my traditional ML & I don't give a darn or care what others are shooting. Remember, it's a recreation not a competition!

One thing that I think many folks fail to recognize is that the MM can be a gateway drug to using traditional muzzleloaders.

I know for me I bought a Savage smokeless model from a pawn shop and hunted with that for a few years. It took me several years worth of reading about how to clean and maintain a sidelock to make the jump and I am never going back.

I know it seems simple ridiculous for us now but lots of folks are intimidated by the perceived difficulty in maintaining a closed breech ML if they have never been shown the ropes.

FWIW I think someone new getting into muzzleloaders is a great thing. I would have been glad to help him with his modern rig and would have encouraged him to try my sidelock. I am sure after a few trigger pulls which one would make him smile more.

As the OP showed the entire world , this , his lack of helping is the exact reason people walk away from BP muzzleloaders!

I don't care for the whole MM thing. I have owned them, strictly to expand my hunting season. I view them as a caseless ammunition rifle. Traditional MLs don't make the DNR more license sales, there aren't more local gun sales, and the traditional practitioner numbers are shrinking. I don't keep up on the knowledge and equipment of MM. I guess I just do what I do.....

#blackpowderbill said:

As the OP showed the entire world , this , his lack of helping is the exact reason people walk away from BP muzzleloaders!

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You need to read that again. It wasn't a lack of helping. It was not knowing about modern muzzleloaders, 209 primers, pellets, and skirted projectiles.

#blackpowderbill said:

As the OP showed the entire world , this , his lack of helping is the exact reason people walk away from BP muzzleloaders!

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Actually, why people are walking away from BP (traditional ) muzzleloaders is due to several reasons. And trust me, just about every time I go to the range here I try to help younger folks understand traditional ML's. Many younger folks walk up to me and enquire about mine, so I explain things to them. They all seem interested but I would wager not the first one went any further with their interest. IMO, it has little to nothing to due with folks not helping.

These are the actual reasons that I see why folks are more interested in MM than us folks that prefer the old side lock, traditional ML's.

1. There is hardly any sporting goods stores that carries traditional ML's, if any at all. They get no exposure in the general public. Therefore, traditional ML have, in essence, become a thing of the past.

2. Even if there were sporting goods stores that carried traditional ML's, folks want any equipment that gives them an advantage while hunting. A scope is highly thought of for poor light condition hunting conditions. Some MM have screw in breach plugs, which is another advantage to some folks. Primers that are are covered and not really exposed to moisture, etc.

3. Black powder is difficult to find in any sporting goods stores. So folks have gotten use to using alternative substitute propellants.

4. Limited shooting accessories at sporting goods stores, such as conical, patches, RB, caps, etc.

5. MM are basically the only type being promoted by magazines, TV adds, internet, TV hunting shows, etc.

6. Many folks want the easy way out for just about everything and anything nowadays. They don't want to take the time to learn how to clean and shoot traditional ML, or with learning the proper patch, ball, powder combination. And they especially do not want to fool around with messy BP that is difficult to come by, other than internet order and having to pay Haz Mat fees.

7. And the main reason, IMO, is because MM gives them an advantage on a big buck or elk. The effective ranges are extended along with better longer range accuracy. Composite stocks and stainless barrels are better for foul weather hunting, a built in safety, slings and/or sling studs, and on some MM a scope, all right out of the box.

I vow to keep my traditional ML's and hunt with them for as long as I am able, but the cold hard facts are, they are much like the steam engine, they are quickly becoming a thing of the past. Technology sells, whether we like it or not.

The first ML rifle I bought was an H+R in line .58 cal in 1972. I use both and have killed game with both. Live and let live, Our group has managed to convert a few, We have even let some in-lines shoot in our GEEZER shoots. We have gained a few as the saw how much fun traditional rifles were! You can't swing them your way with a chip on your shoulder!
Nit Wit