Can You Help?

DCAN said:

Simply stating a fact. I worked around the Oregon Department of Failure (fish) and Waste(wildlife) for many years. They are controlled by politicians and special interest groups. I learned long ago not to waste my time trying to change the course of that particular river.

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Usually if a great many people make thier views heard politici

Mo. department of conservation is mostly profit driven anymore. That and agents spend time and money going after small violations while ignoring rampant poaching and other criminal activity.

DCAN said:

Simply stating a fact. I worked around the Oregon Department of Failure (fish) and Waste(wildlife) for many years. They are controlled by politicians and special interest groups. I learned long ago not to waste my time trying to change the course of that particular river.

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How did these agencies pecome infiltrated by politicians ?
I bielieve that in many if not most states , as in California F&G,F&W were originally set up to be run by professional wildlife managers not politicos or the general wildlife ignorant public i.e. Calif. puma protectionicts havind no knowledge of conservation habitat or animsals.
Often when talking about hunting with groups duck hunting will bne brought up , with non hunters decrying the activity.
When asked of thier concern , they always seem to believe there is a great eradication of ducks.
Not true of course but it probably could be if not for groups such as Ducks Unlimited whose great work as a preserver and creator of habit has greatly enhanced populations.
Many I have talked to have done a little research into what I have mentioned and have come to view situation in a different light.
Admittedly there stillare many who claim that to manage duck populations to allow hunting is bad ,when pointed out thier very food supply is animals managed for a purpose they believe to be unethical, the voices become silent.
when the puma protector in Ca were leading up to getting a protective ballot measure it was claimed thay there was not a single record of a human death or attack, yet within months of total protection in a small community in the valley E. of Sacramento ( wilton) a puma was killed trying to enter a house and shortly later a womqn killed while jogging near Cool.

Blitz

Tumbledown said:

Not a true breechloader. The powder goes in the block, the ball seated on that, then it's locked in behind the barrel. No different than c&b revolvers.

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How about a Ferguson
I never saw one in the flesh, but I think the cartridge goes in just like a modern gun
Henry VIII had a breech loading matchlock, well cap and ball style as powder still went in first
Then there was an Italian lever action wheellock about 1600
We are fudy dudies sticking to our tried and true. But even back in the day one could get a swivel breech
Back when Guttenburg made printing press ol’ fuddy duddies called the results artificial writing
About ten thousand years ago some hunter said ‘what do you mean? You keep a heard of animals and just butcher one when you want? Your wife has a ‘plot’ of veggies and just doesn’t go and pick wild fruit???
How lame

Traditional muzzle loaders are for sportsmen.

In-lines are for killers

Well, the first telescopic sight on a rifle was way back in 1776 as made and done by Charles Peale. He mounted a telescope on a flintlock rifle. He was also the first one to discover scope bite when he fired it too. Which subsequently led to eye relief with a spring loaded device. But since such a system was very expensive not very many people did it.

Then in 1835 a fellow named Charles Chapman developed a scope sight setup that worked pretty well. He got another to manufacture it under the Chapman-James brand. That also led to Malcolm scope system being sold and used too. There are quite a few old photographs of Civil War soldiers shown using the scopes on their sidelock percussion rifles too.

Then of course the first inline muzzleloaders go way back into the 1700s and even some wheel lock ones were made. William Billinghurst in the 1800s perfected it more and there are pictures of some of his guns out there too. I especially like the Billinghurst inline with a Chapman-James scope on it. But the photos are copyrighted so I can’t show them here. He even made some nice underhammer versions too. You can do a internet search for him to see pics of some of his rifles.

So technically a modern muzzleloader is just a improved version of what they were making in the past.

Ref From Telescopes to Rifle Scopes - An Early History

tenngun said:

How about a Ferguson

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A Ferguson has a breech that opens by turning the trigger guard. The block rotates and drops, powder and ball are put in, then it's closed back up.

I don’t want a MM rifle, but I don’t begrudge another having one. At least it’s still just a one shot rifle before you have to go through the reloading process. It’s a start.
And who has just one gun anyway? Most people I know that have muzzle loaders have an AR15, an old 30-30, and a single shot 22 somewhere in their collection also. My point being, welcome these people, expose them to your flintlock or percussion rifle, let them shoot it. Chances are, if their experience with you is a good one, they’ll also own a flintlock or percussion “gun” of their own before long. I suspect if it were not for these extra MM people in the buying market, even less retailers would be selling powder, flints, round balls, and accessories we want. Instead of going out of our way to shun the MM owners, turning newbe’s away from traditional black powder shooting, we should focus our efforts on lobbying our Game & Fish or legislators to create a specific Flintlock hunting period like Pennsylvania’s. Just my thoughts on the topic.

Maybe I'm wrong but the last time I checked, flintlocks were at one time, modern weapons.

The "I hate inlines because I only shoot a flintlock so everyone else should too" mentality crosses over to archery. "I hate speed bows because I only shoot a long bow so everyone else should too". "I hate crossbows because I only shoot a recurve so everyone else should too."

Etc.....

Folks are HUNTING, so we as sportsmen and women should support them, as hunting, like it or not, is NOT growing much, if at all. Hating what others might choose to hunt with is petty, stupid, and counterproductive to the growth of our hunting tradition.

And THAT is the only tradition that matters.......

Urban Coyote said:

I know myself well enough to use caution with this subject. I could go off on a rant very easily, you see I believe the MM crowd are nothing but a bunch of opportunist who are ruining what were once primitive weapons seasons.

I shoot real muzzleloaders quite often at a club range and I get my share of spectators. A couple of days before one of our early muzzleloader season were to open I was approached by regular requesting I help some guy getting ready to sight in his new muzzleloader. I'm not going to belabor you with all the details but it was exactly what I thought. The fellow had his new MM laid out complete with plastic skirted projectiles, pellets and 209 type primers. He was going hunting with a muzzleloader for the first time in a couple of days. He wanted me to give him a lesson and I listened to his pitch. I told him the truth, I know nothing about the MM so there really wasn't anything I could do for him. I then groused a bit to the guy who suggested I help the guy explaining my distain for the MM hoping he'll not offer my assistance to any MM shooters again.

Supply and demand, I think one reason we're having trouble finding loading components, caps, flints and real blackpowder is manufactures are focusing MM shooters.

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Sorry, but I am apparently ignorant or at least slow on the uptake.....what is a MM?

Thanks

The Appalachian said:

Maybe I'm wrong but the last time I checked, flintlocks were at one time, modern weapons.

The "I hate inlines because I only shoot a flintlock so everyone else should too" mentality crosses over to archery. "I hate speed bows because I only shoot a long bow so everyone else should too". "I hate crossbows because I only shoot a recurve so everyone else should too."

Etc.....

Folks are HUNTING, so we as sportsmen and women should support them, as hunting, like it or not, is NOT growing much, if at all. Hating what others might choose to hunt with is petty, stupid, and counterproductive to the growth of our hunting tradition.

And THAT is the only tradition that matters.......

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We should support people that want to hunt with a M.L.R. when we can. The only problem I have run into when I was into archery and is akin to M.L.R. is the modern archer and M.M.L. people have an unfair edge. I saw it in archery when target bows were shooting in hunting class. these bows didn't meet required weight to shoot in hunting class most of them were not even 45LB.. It gave them an unfair advantage just like M.M.L. in hunting. I inherited a Savage Modern M.L.. It used 47 grains of smokeless powder. I sold the rifle for $400.00 as soon as I could. All you were doing is reloading a modern round each time you wanted to shoot the rifle. This is the only problem I have with allowing these shooters the same period to hunt as regular M,L, hunters.

As we move farther from our history, in many facets of life, we lose the Exstacy of participation. My family and friends learned to accomplish an exciting response to simple living. Example: the cell phone [yes, I have one] that allows us to stay connected continually, but also steals our personal contact and face to face fellowship. I recently watched a table of five, in a nice restaurant, who had ordered ahead [cell phone] and never spoke to one another during a fifteen minute 'gobble session.' Why? What did each give to or receive from the others? I suppose the owners liked the money, just as our hunting/fishing overlords do. I enjoy an hour-long breakfast with friends; we discuss our lives, our children, our church, our government and our hobbies ... with not a cell phone present. I have lived, and loved it, for 92 years and find the cell phone mostly used as a weapon or a way to avoid human contact. I, perhaps; use mine 20 minute a month. Rant over. Dale

Wncman said:

I to smoke a pipe. The problem with many folks is the fiddling with one to get the best outcome. The same can be true with black powder weapons. Some can be finicky with loads. For me that’s part of the enjoyment figure it out and keep it running.

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As do I, both smoke a pipe, and feel that much of the fun is in the fiddling to make it go…

I hunt with a flintlock, I personally don't give a flying cr*ap what anyone else hunts with. I'm more concerned about the quality of the whiskey that you brought than the gun you brought into camp.

I'll say it again. MM do NOT belong in a muzzleloader only hunt. I would have ZERO issues with it IF THEY HAD A TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADER season like PA as well. Preferably flint lock or earlier with PRB or smoothbore RB. It really sucks to sit a water hole for three days watching all does come in and when you see Mr horns trotting yer way and hear a boom and see a fellow on a hillside 250 yards away jumping and screaming cuz he shot a deer. I too could shoot a deer at 250 (or 550) yards with a $1500.00 inline and a $4000.00 dollar scope. I wanna do it like GGG Grampa did and it is not the same with a .75 MOA "muzzleloader" taking deer at modern rifle ranges. I guess I need to shut up about it and start in on the AZGFD and maybe in 20 years when I'm too old to hunt anymore they may have a tradional side lock season. Rant over (for now) I get worked up every time I think about it.

tallpine said:

I hunt with a flintlock, I personally don't give a flying cr*ap what anyone else hunts with. I'm more concerned about the quality of the whiskey that you brought than the gun you brought into camp.

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Crown or Jamision as an opener huh?

Shortfingers said:

Sorry, but I am apparently ignorant or at least slow on the uptake.....what is a MM?

Thanks

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Modern muzzleloader, aka inline.

I get to the range five times a year , 'cuz I'm old. I haven't seen a Muzzleloader of any kind at the range for at least 10 yrs. . Too many electronic toys. The price of m/l custom parts is high , and old timers like me don't have the desire to build 'em. Quite a conundrum.

Tumbledown said:

Modern muzzleloader, aka inline.

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Awwwwww…..thank you…….

oldwood said:

I get to the range five times a year , 'cuz I'm old. I haven't seen a Muzzleloader of any kind at the range for at least 10 yrs. . Too many electronic toys. The price of m/l custom parts is high , and old timers like me don't have the desire to build 'em. Quite a conundrum.

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If you do it's a cva trad. Nothing any good to see...

I went to the skeet and traps range with mine pedersoli 10ga They all had little cz kids guns for it.. and they were dressed for it.

I wanted to shoot at something flying and practice loading before going hunting...

Anyway yea you don't fit in kinda.