Flint Leather, Side Fit

Jeez Louise.........

How complicated could it be to put a flint in a flintlock, you guys amaze me.

French Colonial said:

Jeez Louise.........

How complicated could it be to put a flint in a flintlock, you guys amaze me.

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The devil is in the details.

ArmorerRoy said:

The devil is in the details.

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I guess after doing this since the 70's I really do not see why it takes a degree in flintology to put a flint in.

It's not the course material for the degree, it's the apprenticeship program that takes all the time and finding the right flint master journeyman to apprentice under.

Idahomie said:

I can certainly see where that would be advantageous, but it’s just not really practical (or even possible) for the vast majority of folks, myself included.

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I think you would find that a vast majority of folks are closer to sources for supplies than most people think. There are trade fairs and Rendezvous going on around the country quite frequently. Most have open to the public days. Maybe not as easy as on line but more fun

French Colonial said:

Jeez Louise.........

How complicated could it be to put a flint in a flintlock, you guys amaze me.

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They want to show off how much they know. Now if he had a stuck ball we would really see something.

Idahomie said:

Insofar as installing the flint leather from the side of the jaws, John’s told me that the technique is in use by more than one member of our local muzzleloading club. As some of these guys have been engaged in the sport for decades, it’s got me intrigued. I simply haven’t been able to find a single thread on the matter.

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Kinda like baseball pitchers… some of ‘em throw overhand and some of ‘em throw sidearm. Just find what works for you and what you can get comfortable with. Notched leather, plain leather, lead, sideways, frontways…. Just not back’ards… they don’t usually work that well back’ards…

French Colonial said:

Jeez Louise.........

How complicated could it be to put a flint in a flintlock, you guys amaze me.

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I can see your point, but can't quite completely agree because: I've been playing with muzzleloaders and history for 55 years and still learn stuff on this site, plus some people join in here as new to our interests. We try to remember when we were new and such stuff as in this thread we had to learn somehow. Not criticizing your post, just holding the lantern a little bit closer to what we do.

French Colonial said:

I guess after doing this since the 70's I really do not see why it takes a degree in flintology to put a flint in.

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The great thing about this thread that I see is that there are a whole bunch of right ways of doing something. If it works for you, good on you!

Another reason to notch the leather is if your flint is a bit too long. If the flint is touching or pushing on the frizzen at half cock then the notch allows the flint to be positioned further back.

Never had a problem with flint hammer jaw screw using a flint leather with a cut allowing the rear of the flint to rest against the screw. One obvious , but ignored problem with a flint hammer jaw , is lubricating the threads of the jaw screw. Friction reducing the ability to tighten the flint , in place , is a common problem of folks not understanding how a lock is maintained to give maximum performance.

morehops52 said:

Another reason to notch the leather is if your flint is a bit too long. If the flint is touching or pushing on the frizzen at half cock then the notch allows the flint to be positioned further back.

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After a discussion with the club member, it would seem that this is the reason for putting the leather in from the side: it negates having to notch the leather.

Idahomie said:

After a discussion with the club member, it would seem that this is the reason for putting the leather in from the side: it negates having to notch the leather.

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If a flint is too long I don't see how inserting it sideways makes it any shorter. Perhaps i'm missing something.

Idahomie said:

Thanks for chiming in here, rafterob. I measured my frizzen and ordered some 5/8” flints from October Country, only to find they were also short. I went with the next size up (5/8”) and found they were also far too short. It would appear as though the flints John offers are all square, and I needed something more rectangular. I ended up going with Tom Fuller’s 3/4" x 7/8 flints through Track of the Wolf and I think they’re going to work out great.

Still… I’m confused about the whole “flint not touching screw” thing, as it was my understanding you’d need to have a spacer behind the flint to keep it from sliding back during impact. John didn’t mention any such thing.

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I've trimmed the front of cock jaws to shorten them up before on certain locks and also taken a punch or awl to the upper and lower cock jaw surface to rough up the grip on the leather or lead pad around the flint.
I've both notched and left the leather pads whole and can't really tell much if any difference in flint grip or spark function.
The main thing I've found with production flints struck from cores with the hump is to grind the hump off flat so the upper jaw can get a better purchase on the flint through the leather pad.

Here are my thoughts on the topic, for what they're worth:

(1) I've read that when you use lead, the flint often becomes loose after a while. Haven't tried lead, but I believe the flint would come loose, because lead is malleable and totally inelastic, so eventually it will get compressed and not "bounce back", and you have a loose flint.

(2) Leather, on the other hand, has some elasticity and therefore will "bounce back" to maintain a tight grip longer.

(3) Flint is very hard and inelastic, so if you don't use leather or something else that's slightly "squishy", you're going to have only a few quite small areas of direct contact between it and the cock jaw faces. And flint is brittle, so under stress, those few small areas of contact with hard steel will see very high stress, causing those points to microscopically shatter when striking the frizzen, thus loosening the flint.

(4) Leather, on the other hand, being pliable, will provide a much greater area of contact and thus spreading the forces over a much larger area of the flint surfaces.

(5) If you use leather that's too thick, it will be too spongy, and you won't have a solidly held flint. I use thin suede leather about 1/16th inch thick from a craft shop, and it seems to work very well.

Winterhawk said:

The only reason to make a hole in the leather is to use an over-long flint. I have seen folks knap a notch in the rear of the flint so be able to move it back more. If your flints are shorter the notch is not needed.

Position your flint so it is 1/16" or a touch more away from the frizzen face when the rifle is at half cock, with the edge parallel to the frizzen face to throw the most sparks into the pan. As you knap the edge you will occasionally need to move the flint out. That will allow you to get many more shots out of it, until it is a small nubbin and there isn't enough for the jaws to grip, which may be a surprising number of shots.

As mentioned, use thin leather. The British used lead for their rifles, It was issued with the ammunition, flint and one piece of lead for 7 balls if memory serves me correctly (but don't take my word for it; it may have been 12 or more balls at a time). The flint and lead were changed together when those balls ran out. There was no worry about the flint loosening once the jaws had been tightened down. Civilians who use lead wrap take way more shots per flint and the lead doesn't spring back so the flint gets loose. Leather (as has also been mentioned here) has more give so it pops back to hold the flint securely.

I hope this helps. If you have a Dixie catalog, the rear section has all sorts of tips on shooting m/l guns and I believe this topic has been covered in there, or at least, it used to be unless it remove the pucker at the fold over mid grip on the flint.

~Kees~

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I've heard it said that notching the leather helps the cock jaws grip the flint better also but can't really see any reason for that to be true unless the pucker at the fold over in the middle is effecting the grip.

If I understand the OP's meaning correctly then (the) or (a) solution is easily come by. Whether the leather and/or flint are inserted into the jaws from the front, side or, for those with an over abundance of imagination, the rear, as long as the piece of leather and the flint get between the jaws then the shooter is already way ahead of the game.

Flints are knapped, more or less, for locks of different sizes. For one's lock a flint should be chosen that that can barely clear the frizzen by (previously explained) around 1/16" when at half cock. Either flint or leather patch may or may not need to be notched for achieving this 1/16". But that's alright as long as both leather and flint are in the jaws. Errors generally come from one of two directions; either the wrong flint is used (too short) or the wrong cock somehow ended up on the wrong lock.

Flint length is critical but width isn't...necessarily. A flint of good length may be wider than the jaws or frizzen but this is irrelevant. The flint may be moved toward the outside "away" past the frizzen edge without spoiling the geometry. But what's required is that the flint MUST be moved far enough past the outside frizzen edge so to avoid the inner flint edge from striking the barrel. That's all there is to it, kids.

Mounting a flint is pretty much a step #1, #2 and #3, not too much unlike the loading procedure itself. I know several shooters without a graduate degree in engineering or physics who mount flints correctly without actually thinking about it; it becomes ingrained with practice. Basically, if it's very difficult, won't work or looks/sounds "funny" then it is being wrongly approached.

Grenadier1758 said:

It's not the course material for the degree, it's the apprenticeship program that takes all the time and finding the right flint master journeyman to apprentice under.

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Terrier said:

Kinda like baseball pitchers… some of ‘em throw overhand and some of ‘em throw sidearm. Just find what works for you and what you can get comfortable with. Notched leather, plain leather, lead, sideways, frontways…. Just not back’ards… they don’t usually work that well back’ards…

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I must be putting mine in back’ards! Maybe I bought SparkLESS flints.

You don't have to install the leather from the side to be able to adjust it and it doesn't have to touch the screw to be usable. On short flints I wrap the leather around the flint then put it in the jaws and move it around until it just sits off the frizzen at half cock. Sometime after re-sharping the flint several times I will move it out slightly to keep using it. As long as it still sparks and the jaws continue to hold it I'm going to keep using it