Ugly Hammer

Edward Kelly · Jun 5, 2024

I recently got my hands on a 1979 production Uberti 1851.

I'm using old remington caps that came with the gun (no new caps for sale around here) & a lot of them only go bang on the second strike.

The gun itself is a bit rough & one thing I've noticed is the hammer face.
I've attached a photo, showing a circular indentation.

Is the dent from dry firing with nipples in place or has 40 years of busting caps eroded the metal away?
I'd like to figure out if I need to fix up the hammer or if it's good enough as is & I should be looking elsewhere for my cap ignition problem.

ROA457 · Jun 5, 2024

Edward Kelly said:
I recently got my hands on a 1979 production Uberti 1851.

I'm using old remington caps that came with the gun (no new caps for sale around here) & a lot of them only go bang on the second strike.

The gun itself is a bit rough & one thing I've noticed is the hammer face.
I've attached a photo, showing a circular indentation.

Is the dent from dry firing with nipples in place or has 40 years of busting caps eroded the metal away?
I'd like to figure out if I need to fix up the hammer or if it's good enough as is & I should be looking elsewhere for my cap ignition problem.

View attachment 325432

I think you hit the nail on the head, 40 years of busting caps has imprinted the hammer. Get it faced off and the hammer nose to bring them both into their proper status

Edward Kelly · Jun 5, 2024

ROA457 said:
I think you hit the nail on the head, 40 years of busting caps has imprinted the hammer. Get it faced off and the hammer nose to bring them both into their proper status

I'm sure I could smooth it out with a stone & remove the corresponding amount of material from the hammer nose.

I'm less confident about removing material from elsewhere on the hammer (the inside curve I guess) to increase the travel forward & compensate for what I take off the face.

It'd be DIY since there's no gunsmith around here (I'm in bundy) - the last guy died a few years back & no one else wanted the job.

n.h.schmidt · Jun 7, 2024

Greetings from Iowa USA. If it was mine . I would file it (if soft enough) or stone it flat. If you run into hammer reach problems , you could space the nipples out to make up for it. I'm guessing that getting longer nipples is not possible where you are at. For caps you can make them. A die to punch them out can be bought .If that is not possible plans to make them are out there. I make my own with very good results. I have made many thousands of the cups. I would send you some but I'm not sure if they would get through your customs.

45D · Jun 7, 2024

n.h.schmidt said:
Greetings from Iowa USA. If it was mine . I would file it (if soft enough) or stone it flat. If you run into hammer reach problems , you could space the nipples out to make up for it. I'm guessing that getting longer nipples is not possible where you are at. For caps you can make them. A die to punch them out can be bought .If that is not possible plans to make them are out there. I make my own with very good results. I have made many thousands of the cups. I would send you some but I'm not sure if they would get through your customs.

It'd be easier /cheaper to just relieve the inside curve of the hammer . . . and /or inside the hammer slot. Won't take much to make up the difference. Many times ROA's need the "ears" on either side of the hammer need to be relieved to
restore reliable ignition.

Mike

Ponderosaman · Jun 7, 2024

I’m not a welder, but there are so many YouTubes for everything these days, I might just study up on how to do exactly what I wanted, rent a welder, practice a teeny bit on something, and then give it a whirl. If your practice pieces are atrocious, at least you had a journey and you might have a little extra skill under your belt. You can probably tailor your type of weld to make a very hard surface that won’t dent again. You might want to find a friend with a disk grinder, though you could probably do pretty good with an angle grinder to mill your piece back to spec.

wiscoaster · Jun 7, 2024

Isn't that circular indent supposed to be there? And mostly missing from modern repros, maybe one reason for their propensity to cap jam? This is the hammer face on my Colt 1860 third gen "Signature Series" and it's definitely been milled into there, and not due to hammer strikes, since it probably hasn't been shot more than 50 rounds, and certainly no dry-firing. Just wondering....

Maybe the OP's "indent" just needs to be smoothed out.

45D · Jun 7, 2024

Nope, not supposed to be there.

Mike

Edward Kelly · Jun 8, 2024

n.h.schmidt said:
Greetings from Iowa USA. If it was mine . I would file it (if soft enough) or stone it flat. If you run into hammer reach problems , you could space the nipples out to make up for it. I'm guessing that getting longer nipples is not possible where you are at. For caps you can make them. A die to punch them out can be bought .If that is not possible plans to make them are out there. I make my own with very good results. I have made many thousands of the cups. I would send you some but I'm not sure if they would get through your customs.

Thanks for offering, I think customs would be fine, but postage from the states to anywhere else is insane these days.
I'm seeing 3D printed cap maker tools being sold pretty cheap online & I'm planning to grab one of those & a couple dozen packets of cap gun caps.

When I have caps to waste on testing I'll start cautiously removing metal with a fine grit stone.
I shot 18 rounds at the range this morning & had good ignition when I took care to push the caps on as hard as I could.

Problem is a lot of them don't split after going off, so I still have to figure that out.

Edward Kelly · Jun 8, 2024

45D said:
It'd be easier /cheaper to just relieve the inside curve of the hammer . . . and /or inside the hammer slot. Won't take much to make up the difference. Many times ROA's need the "ears" on either side of the hammer need to be relieved
restore reliable ignition.

Mike

That seems like the best plan.

But before I do anything I'd like to know: does the dent even matter?
If cleaning up the hammer face won't make a functional difference then I'd just as soon leave it alone

I started looking at the hammer because a lot of caps aren't splitting. They stay stuck on the nipples - was popping one off with a knife blade after every few shots this morning.

And I'm still unclear on how much (if any) the hammer's contributing to that problem.

Edward Kelly · Jun 8, 2024

wiscoaster said:
Isn't that circular indent supposed to be there? And mostly missing from modern repros, maybe one reason for their propensity to cap jam? This is the hammer face on my Colt 1860 third gen "Signature Series" and it's definitely been milled into there, and not due to hammer strikes, since it probably hasn't been shot more than 50 rounds, and certainly no dry-firing. Just wondering....
View attachment 325914

Maybe the OP's "indent" just needs to be smoothed out.

My first photo was super close up so it's a bit hard to tell, but my indent doesn't looked like it was milled in.
It's not as deep or clean looking as in your picture.
Here's another shot showing the whole hammer.

45D · Jun 8, 2024

Edward Kelly said:
That seems like the best plan.

But before I do anything I'd like to know: does the dent even matter?
If cleaning up the hammer face won't make a functional difference then I'd just as soon leave it alone

I started looking at the hammer because a lot of caps aren't splitting. They stay stuck on the nipples - was popping one off with a knife blade after every few shots this morning.

And I'm still unclear on how much (if any) the hammer's contributing to that problem.

The imprint in your hammer doesn't look all that bad. Is there contact with the hammer and nipple (without cap) ? Check for forward movement of the cylinder if you push the hammer forward with your thumb (while maintaining some rear pressure on the cylinder to keep any contact with hammer/nipple). I always make sure there is contact by pushing the hammer and cylinder together as a unit fore and aft.

45D · Jun 8, 2024

You can see the "contact patch" of the frame/ hammer in your second pic. If your not maintaining full contact with nipple, file the frame at the contact area to gain 100% contact fore / aft with above test. It wouldn't hurt to go ahead and clean up the hammer face some.

Mike

Edward Kelly · Jun 8, 2024

45D said:
You can see the "contact patch" of the frame/ hammer in your second pic. If your not maintaining full contact with nipple, file the frame at the contact area to gain 100% contact fore / aft with above test. It wouldn't hurt to go ahead and clean up the hammer face some.

Mike

Thanks for the advice.
Tonight the gun's in pieces waiting on me to clean it tomorrow. Once I get it back together I'll try your contact test & take it from there.

Bad Karma · Jun 8, 2024

Edward Kelly said:
That seems like the best plan.

But before I do anything I'd like to know: does the dent even matter?
If cleaning up the hammer face won't make a functional difference then I'd just as soon leave it alone

I started looking at the hammer because a lot of caps aren't splitting. They stay stuck on the nipples - was popping one off with a knife blade after every few shots this morning.

And I'm still unclear on how much (if any) the hammer's contributing to that problem.

The dent doesn’t matter. As long as the surface inside the dent makes contact with the cap and the priming mix inside the cap is in contact (or close to contact) with the face of the cone the cap will ignite every time. I used to spend a bit of time setting guns up so that the hammer face didn't make contact with a bare cone. Short by a couple thousandths… It’s how they were originally designed to run.
If it were me, I’d file the hammer face flat taking care to just flatten it to the point where wear has already indicated and no more. Just because the look of the pocket worn into the surface would bug me to no end. I doubt it would make any noticeable difference in the way the caps behave on firing.

It’s been my experience that “second strike” firing indicates the cap fit is not where it should be. When the cap is seated on the cone by thumb pressure alone, the priming mix is in contact with the cone. Hammer falls, ignition occurs. Often the cone is too large for the cup of the cap and the first strike seats the cap so the second strike can ignite it…

The file attached will tell you everything you need to know about cap fit…. The picture shows the poor cap fit which causes second strike…

Edward Kelly · Jun 8, 2024

Edward Kelly said:
Thanks for the advice.
Tonight the gun's in pieces waiting on me to clean it tomorrow. Once I get it back together I'll try your contact test & take it from there.

With the gun re-assembled I push on the hammer & there's zero forward movement of the cylinder.
The hammer looks to be firmly seated against the frame at that contact patch you pointed out.
I can just push a 0.010" feeler gauge into the gap between the top of the hammer & the frame & that doesn't change regardless of whether there's a nipple installed.

I've only got half a tin of Remington #10 caps left, after that there's a couple of tins of CC #11's & if the supply situation hasn't improved when those are gone I'll be trying to make my own out of drink cans & red plastic ring caps.

I've ordered a set of Treso nipples to try with the #11's & I'll see how they go before I get stuck into the frame with a file.

I really appreciate getting knowledgeable answers to my ignorant questions.

Edward Kelly · Jun 8, 2024

Bad Karma said:
The dent doesn’t matter. As long as the surface inside the dent makes contact with the cap and the priming mix inside the cap is in contact (or close to contact) with the face of the cone the cap will ignite every time. I used to spend a bit of time setting guns up so that the hammer face didn't make contact with a bare cone. Short by a couple thousandths… It’s how they were originally designed to run.
If it were me, I’d file the hammer face flat taking care to just flatten it to the point where wear has already indicated and no more. Just because the look of the pocket worn into the surface would bug me to no end. I doubt it would make any noticeable difference in the way the caps behave on firing.

It’s been my experience that “second strike” firing indicates the cap fit is not where it should be. When the cap is seated on the cone by thumb pressure alone, the priming mix is in contact with the cone. Hammer falls, ignition occurs. Often the cone is too large for the cup of the cap and the first strike seats the cap so the second strike can ignite it…

The file attached will tell you everything you need to know about cap fit…. The picture shows the poor cap fit which causes second strike…
View attachment 325947

Thanks for the link.
Looks like I have what that document calls "small" Italian factory. Two sets came with the gun & they look to be identical size.

The Remington #10's do seem to sit nicely on my current nipples, but unless I push down hard, only half of them go off on the first strike.
I'm not pinching them or pushing so hard they split, so maybe what I consider pushing hard is just the correct amount of force?

CCI #11's sit so loose they fall off.
I've ordered a set of Treso nipples to try with the CCI #11 caps - can't find anyone selling SlixShot in Australia.

The dent bugs me now, but I didn't even notice it for the first 3 months I had the gun despite disassembling & re-assembling it half a dozen times.
I'm going to be conservative and lightly run a high grit stone over the hammer face each time I have it apart after shooting.
My plan being that if I do open up too much a gap, I'll only have to remove a tiny amount from the frame to correct for it.

Colonial Boy · Jun 8, 2024

Regarding the caps not splitting, I’ve noticed that when firing light changes; how much are you loading?
Love your Ned Kelly, I knew one of Ned’s nephews but the subject of his uncle was never discussed.
He never brought it up and, consequently, I never asked.

Edward Kelly · Jun 9, 2024

Colonial Boy said:
Regarding the caps not splitting, I’ve noticed that when firing light changes; how much are you loading?
Love your Ned Kelly, I knew one of Ned’s nephews but the subject of his uncle was never discussed.
He never brought it up and, consequently, I never asked.

It could be light charges. I'm only using 16 grains (with 80 gr balls) - in fact 1 cc pre-measured with a lee powder scoop.
That seems to give me pretty good accuracy with 6 o'clock point of aim at 25 metres.

I've been waiting for someone to ask me who edward kelly was so I could describe him as a popular early member of our black powder shooting community who fell afoul of Australia's strict gun laws.

Colonial Boy · Jun 9, 2024

Edward Kelly said:
It could be light charges. I'm only using 16 grains (with 80 gr balls) - in fact 1 cc pre-measured with a lee powder scoop.
That seems to give me pretty good accuracy with 6 o'clock point of aim at 25 metres.

I've been waiting for someone to ask me who edward kelly was so I could describe him as a popular early member of our black powder shooting community who fell afoul of Australia's strict gun laws.

Well, I think that he was basically a good bloke, who ran afoul of the wrong people.
The police of the day were not recruited from the best and often bent the law in their own favour.
Example, Constable FitzPatrick, on whose evidence much of the Crown case depended was, after Ned was safely convicted and hung, dismissed from the Police as “. . . a coward, a blackguard and a liar, and not fit to wear the Queen’s uniform.”

Ugly Hammer

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