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Ignition speed between flint and percussion

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M

M. De Land

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There is a really good article by the Bevel Bros. this month in MB magazine about relative ignition speed between flint and percussion ignition that would be good for all to read. Larry Pletcher was involved with his expertise and experience in this area using high speed photos of 5000 frames per second and it was found that percussion ignition from hammer fall to discharge is much faster than flint ignition that requires more follow through to shoot accurately.
Generally the follow through time needed to shoot accurately is until the pan smoke clears.
A fast flint gun seems to demonstrate instantaneous ignition but when compared to percussion takes a good deal longer. In this test using a small Siler lock (converted between flint and percussion). The percussion took .0056 and flint .0320 ten thousands. If I'm figuring correctly that means the percussion ignition in this test was roughly five times faster than was the flint which is pretty amazing to me! Now were talking mill-seconds but then it doesn't take much time to move the muzzle off target either.
 
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M. De Land said:
There is a really good article by the Bevel Bros. this month in MB magazine about relative ignition speed between flint and percussion ignition that would be good for all to read. Larry Pletcher was involved with his expertise and experience in this area using high speed photos of 5000 frames per second and it was found that percussion ignition from hammer fall to discharge is much faster than flint ignition and requires more follow through to shoot accurately.
Generally the follow through time needed to shoot accurately is until the pan smoke clears.
A fast flint gun seems to demonstrate instantaneous ignition but when compared to percussion takes a good deal longer. In this test using a small Siler lock (converted between flint and percussion). The percussion took .0056 and flint .0320 ten thousands. If I'm figuring correctly that means the percussion ignition in this test was roughly five times faster than was the flint which is pretty amazing to me! Now were talking micro-seconds but then it doesn't take much time to move the muzzle off target either.
Click to expand...
It's cool the B Bros are back at it! Yup, thats a 5.8X faster for the percussion.

I wish they'd test a snaplock, where it's direct flame to powder, albeit pan powdah that then needs to ignite the ain charge, but the ignition speeds should be closer to the chemical ignition speed of gun powdah.

I'll have to email Larry and offer him a tinder snap lock lock to use ...
 
M. De Land said:
There is a really good article by the Bevel Bros. this month in MB magazine about relative ignition speed between flint and percussion ignition that would be good for all to read. Larry Pletcher was involved with his expertise and experience in this area using high speed photos of 5000 frames per second and it was found that percussion ignition from hammer fall to discharge is much faster than flint ignition and requires more follow through to shoot accurately.
Generally the follow through time needed to shoot accurately is until the pan smoke clears.
A fast flint gun seems to demonstrate instantaneous ignition but when compared to percussion takes a good deal longer. In this test using a small Siler lock (converted between flint and percussion). The percussion took .0056 and flint .0320 ten thousands. If I'm figuring correctly that means the percussion ignition in this test was roughly five times faster than was the flint which is pretty amazing to me! Now were talking micro-seconds but then it doesn't take much time to move the muzzle off target either.
Click to expand...
Lock time has a lot to do with accuracy. I mentioned this in a post some time back. I tried aerial shots with my .54 cal hawkin. I was amazed at how long the follow thru had to be to hit a target six inches square. Compared to a .22 rifle. The lead on moving targets and holding on the target after the rifles fires is crazy long.
 
waksupi said:
I've seen studies that say the flintlock is faster to fire. I do know I hear the snap of a cap and a pause before a percussion rifle goes off. My flintlocks seem instantaneous, probably because I shoot them so much, have them well tuned, and properly primed.
Click to expand...
The article addressed this. The actual time it takes the frizzen sparks to ignite the pan of powder after making contact with it is much slower than is percussion nipple ignition and is only part of the time cycle (cock fall, pan burn, flash hole burn and main charge burn) needed to eject a patched ball from the barrel muzzle.
Flint ignition is nearly 6 times slower than is the same gun and load with percussion ignition.
Facts are stubborn critters that are hard to except over fashionable ideas that are not true but have been accepted as so.
The camera and photo cell doesn't lie !
 
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Variables, variables, variables; so many variables . Not even from gun to gun but from shot to shot. Like it or not the cap lock has less variables and by default will be more consistent. These test were also done under ideal conditions, factor in 85% humidity and damp conditions and you widen the gap more. I love my flintlocks , most fun guns I shoot, but the cap guns made them obsolete for many reasons, lock time being one of them.
 
Flint62Smoothie said:
It's cool the B Bros are back at it! Yup, thats a 5.8X faster for the percussion.

I wish they'd test a snaplock, where it's direct flame to powder, albeit pan powdah that then needs to ignite the ain charge, but the ignition speeds should be closer to the chemical ignition speed of gun powdah.

I'll have to email Larry and offer him a tinder snap lock lock to use ...
Click to expand...
Actually they did test a device that attached to the cock and had a roller tracking down a piece of leather temperarely glued to the face of the frizzen working much like a wheel lock ignition if I understood the description correctly.
 
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I've read of three Appalachian Mtn. professional hunters one located in Western MD. , the other two in north central Pa.. In their memoirs , they made the transition from flint to percussion about the same time , but nothing was mentioned about the why. All we can suppose , is that availability of flints became less and less , but percussion caps could be bought or traded for in most places. I stick w/ flint because I'm too dumb to keep a percussion ignition working. I've scratch built and used a couple small game percussions , with limited success. Have built a many flint rifles , big and small calibers w/ perfect success. LOL
 
Personally speaking, I cannot tell the difference between cap and flint ignition. My flintlocks are just as fast as my caplocks. Thousandths of a second either way feels the same. Paper targets don't care which ignition system that I choose to shoot on any particular day. I have given up hunting for animals
Just my $0.02 comment.
 
For most of us, our reaction times are longer than the 0.032 seconds it takes for a flint lock to ignite the powder charge and send the ball out the barrel. We may think we are that fast, but we are not. Even though I have convinced myself that time slows when firing a flint lock, I do know that is not really the case. It really doesn't make much difference whether we are shooting a flint lock or a percussion lock, we still are required to follow through the shot and hold on target until the smoke clears.
 
Grenadier1758 said:
For most of us, our reaction times are longer than the 0.032 seconds it takes for a flint lock to ignite the powder charge and send the ball out the barrel. We may think we are that fast, but we are not. Even though I have convinced myself that time slows when firing a flint lock, I do know that is not really the case. It really doesn't make much difference whether we are shooting a flint lock or a percussion lock, we still are required to follow through the shot and hold on target until the smoke clears.
Click to expand...
Very true and a flinch is detrimental to accuracy with either ignition system !
 
Grenadier1758 said:
As we well know, @M. De Land, the flinch starts when the trigger is pulled and before the charge is ignited. It takes practice to overcome the flinch. And flinches can return even after we have conquered them.
Click to expand...
I suspect flint ignition is probably a flinch generator as some folks cannot seem to block out the flash mentally which starts the flinch cycle and so compensate by closing their eyes or blinking which aggravates the flinch.
I have never noticed the flash so I'm either blinking or mentally blocking it out but as I don't seem to have a flinch problem it is probably the later which is advantage.
 
What is this "pan flash" that is spoken of so much?:D Can't say I have ever seen it when shooting either one of me flintlock rifles. It must be there somewhere because the rifles do send their respective balls downrange in the general direction of whatever target at which I am aiming. :D

In all seriousness however, my take on the situation is that the more focused you are on the sights, concentrating on the basics of sight alignment and trigger squeeze, the less likely you are liable to notice the pan flash.
 
Pete G said:
The government ALWAYS needs a study
Click to expand...

Yup. And they'll have it done over and over till it says what they want it to. 🤣
Grenadier1758 said:
It really doesn't make much difference whether we are shooting a flint lock or a percussion lock, we still are required to follow through the shot and hold on target until the smoke clears.
Click to expand...
You strike a chord with me. Whenever I see my accuracy deteriorating it's usually follow through.

I don't shoot flinters but I already knew the results. Whenever I note someone talking about how fast their flinter is it includes a phrase such as "just as fast as my capper" or "almost as fast as my capper". Competitions aren't often sorted between flint and cap because the flinter delivers an unfair advantage. 🤣
 
longcruise said:
Yup. And they'll have it done over and over till it says what they want it to. 🤣

You strike a chord with me. Whenever I see my accuracy deteriorating it's usually follow through.

I don't shoot flinters but I already knew the results. Whenever I note someone talking about how fast their flinter is it includes a phrase such as "just as fast as my capper" or "almost as fast as my capper". Competitions aren't often sorted between flint and cap because the flinter delivers an unfair advantage. 🤣
Click to expand...
My contention is that if a person can shoot a flint gun well then they can shoot any gun well !
 

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