1857 Tower

Wooly15 · Apr 22, 2014

First off, thanks for having me here at the forums and I hope you guys can help me out. I recently purchased an 1857 Tower marked (former) rifle now smoothbore musket. I've been digging around the internet for days trying to figure out a little background on it. When I bought it, I assumed it was an Afghanistan bringback, pakistani copy. When I looked closer the markings were too "neat" compared to the others like that I've seen. I forgot to get pictures before reassembly, but under the barrel it is marked "DEARS" or "DEART", "C&G", "17" and also hash marks. The proof marks on the left side of the barrel have long since been cleaned or sanded away but there are faint marks. The ramrod looks like it was made by a kindergartner! Anyway, my most current assupmtion is that it's a British made rifle, bored out, and issued to Indian troops during the insurrection. Can anyone add any insight?
Thanks in advance,
Adam

Alden · Apr 22, 2014

Welcome.

Nice gun actually.

Can't tell you more than that, by tradition, you need to lube its bullets with beef tallow and bacon grease.

; )

Wooly15 · Apr 22, 2014

Being very new to the muzzle loading world...Why's that?

pargent · Apr 23, 2014

One would need to see every single stamp on the barrel (close ups )the lock inside and out ,post the photos on the British flint and precusion forum and you will get a very detailed reply .

From your posted photos it is hard to judge but there could be promise there(marks on the bottom of the barrel and look all over the stock as well)

pargent · Apr 23, 2014

The myth about the Enfield cartridges and the bullet lube as the cause of the Indian mutiny in 1857 is what Alden is refering to , he can be a joker at times

Wes/Tex · Apr 23, 2014

Looks like an Enfield M.1853, thought the forward barrel band and rear sight don't look original. I'm certainly no expert on English rifles, may be small points I'm overlooking . Do know Atlanta Cutlery is peddling a boat load of 19th centuries English rifles and muskets found in an armory in Burma or somewhere over there. Ought to be able to get a ramrod replacement from them. Good luck.

TFoley · Apr 23, 2014

1601phill said:
The myth about the Enfield cartridges and the bullet lube as the cause of the Indian mutiny in 1857 is what Alden is refering to , he can be a joker at times

1. The actual lubricant was mutton tallow - the rumours were spread by disaffected of both religious pursuasions.

2. It was not until after 'The Mutiny' that most Indian native troops were issued with smooth-bore versions of the Pattern 53 rifled musket - many already had been issued with the previous model that was a smooth-bore.

tac

Wooly15 · Apr 23, 2014

I looked the stock over and there are no markings. There are very faint marks on of the barrel bands and inside the trigger guard. I will try and post pics of those and under the barrel this evening.

ResearchPress · Apr 23, 2014

"C&G" could be the Birmingham barrel makers Cooper & Goodman.

I can't trace DEARS/T

David

pargent · Apr 23, 2014

:thumbsup:

robinghewitt · Apr 23, 2014

tac said:
many already had been issued with the previous model that was a smooth-bore.

That could explain why my musket with the fixed rear sight has a lock dated 1855, two years before the Sepoy rebellion :thumbsup:

Tumblernotch · Apr 23, 2014

Wes/Tex said:
Looks like an Enfield M.1853, thought the forward barrel band and rear sight don't look original. I'm certainly no expert on English rifles, may be small points I'm overlooking . Do know Atlanta Cutlery is peddling a boat load of 19th centuries English rifles and muskets found in an armory in Burma or somewhere over there. Ought to be able to get a ramrod replacement from them. Good luck.

The forward band is correct. Looks like a P53/1. Some were imported here during the CW, but most of those we see are P53/3's. Are there band springs on the right side holding the bands in place?

pargent · Apr 23, 2014

The lock is looking good so far , I do hope you get some positive results

Wooly15 · Apr 23, 2014

There are springs holding them in place.

Tumblernotch · Apr 23, 2014

Then it is a Pattern 53 2nd Model. I got a little mixed up when I posted earlier. The First Model had clamping type bands. They changed to spring held bands on this model, then back to clamped bands on the third model. Production began on the 2nd Model in 1855.

pargent · Apr 25, 2014

I have been following your other posts , that will be powder ,remove the barrel and fill it up with hot soapy water to soften the old charge , if it does not come out after a couple of goes with water fill it up with a liquid like 3 in 1 oil and let it sit and try again .Keep that wading and shot by the way .

Wooly15 · Apr 25, 2014

1601phill said:
I have been following your other posts , that will be powder ,remove the barrel and fill it up with hot soapy water to soften the old charge , if it does not come out after a couple of goes with water fill it up with a liquid like 3 in 1 oil and let it sit and try again .Keep that wading and shot by the way .

Just in case you guys were wondering what he's talking about. Last night, I noticed the ramrod was hitting something soft when I slid it down the barrel. My first thought was "oh s***, it's still loaded!" I borrowed a friends unloader and pulled this out. The powder is still there and judging by the look of the wad and shot, it's very old. Was it common for these to be used as shotguns after their military career?

curator · Apr 25, 2014

Many, many American Civil War muskets were "converted" to smoothbores in the decades following the war. The P53 Enfield was quite common here in the US. Without Indian or other "acceptance" marks, don't assume it is not an ACW artifact. Bannermans and several other hardware chains offered these for as low as $3.00 to folks who needed a versatile inexpensive firearm. As a boy in the 50s I saw a lot of these in "country" hardware stores for sale for $10-20. When I was working at my County's museum I saw hundreds of these brought in to identify, and most were still loaded. There are a few companies that will re-line the barrel for you and convert it back into a rifle that is safe to shoot.

LuckyDucky · Jun 24, 2024

Can someone email me about my antique store find of two Enfield's. A 1861 Enfield and a 1857 Tower. Thank you. [email protected]

Conquerordie · Jun 24, 2024

I think it's just a cobled together parts gun. The lock and barrel don't mate very well, there should be no gaps around the bolster and lock. It looks like it has a few different types of barrel bands. In the one picture the front band looks like there is a large gap between the stock and the band. It should be a tight fit. The lock has a Crown/VR and what could be a broadarrow? On the plate near the date. Without being able to tell what the proof marks were on the barrel, it's hard to prove they were together from the get go, as legit British military Enfields were well marked through the inspection process. The rear sight has that hole drilled in it as well, which I've seen on other guns, but don't know why they are there. Don't think it has any Civil War value. Now you said you have an 1861 dated Enfield, that one might. But you have to share pics.

1857 Tower

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