Weird eBay flintlock

PathfinderNC · Jul 9, 2024

On the last photo, it appears there is crack in the main spring just below the bend? If so, it could be an issue.

smokepolehall · Jul 9, 2024

Rudyard said:
I think your being a little bit unkind well not a little bit A big bit . You probably don't use an Indian made gun. Rudyard defender of the under dog gunmakers .

Maybe hasty but i saw the angle of the Frizzen in his photo & said that's bad !

Sam squanch · Jul 9, 2024

There was no fancy geometry involved in planning these things…. When the heavy mainspring bashes that flint down- sparks will be made!

RMFnLA · Jul 9, 2024

If you have a “weird lock collection” I’d think that thing is right up your alley.

Rudyard · Jul 9, 2024

Philip Chua said:
Thank you to Rudyard (who is always an excellent source of help and whose voice I some day hope to hear live!), Sam and all. I have less than $200 in it and she has offered a discount instead of sending it back to her. I am inclined to keep it. There are no great books on flintlock locks so what I’ve been doing is buying them here and there and then disassembling them to sort out how they operate. I have a couple years of college level physics which has been completely useless for this application. Some of
These locks were attached to cheap rifles I find in online auctions.

Once I feel I have a better understanding of how these things work I’m going to step up to assembly from castings (TRS or Blackley and Sons). Yes, I’ll call ahead to see what’s in stock and order that.

Thank you all again. This lock will go on the shelf for a bit as I have a “flintlock from scratch” project started. Paid my $75 for the month at the community wood shop so I can use some of the big tools to go from a big ash board to a blank.

Dear Philip .If you have a local' Menz Shed ' which is mostly but not exclusively, so for older gentlemen they have all kinds of tools and fairly experience older men but there is no' to young' limit my local one is just 20$ N Z a year. We don't have any 'men only' limit
My voice is corrupted broad Yorkshire but I can Do Kipling's poems and fond of Burns , I do a passable' Banjo' Patterson ,Robert Service.& bits of Shakespeare fond of the late Stan Rodgers . most expended on the Cats or any critter ,I speak to them in French ,Spanish, & Zulu. and other tongues like my limited Arabic , Hindi,& Indonesian . WHY ! well unless you use a language you forget it. I once met a girl who told me she did two years at uni learning French . I asked" Do you speak it" She said "No" I wondered how she could do that when three weeks hitching in France would serve her better ..However I digress. I think Cyten & Sam nailed it re the Lazzarino lock And thankyou for your kind thoughts .
Regards Rudyard

Philip Chua · Jul 9, 2024

PathfinderNC said:
On the last photo, it appears there is crack in the main spring just below the bend? If so, it could be an issue.

Rudyard said:
Dear Philip .If you have a local' Menz Shed ' which is mostly but not exclusively, so for older gentlemen they have all kinds of tools and fairly experience older men but there is no' to young' limit my local one is just 20$ N Z a year. We don't have any 'men only' limit
My voice is corrupted broad Yorkshire but I can Do Kipling's poems and fond of Burns , I do a passable' Banjo' Patterson ,Robert Service.& bits of Shakespeare fond of the late Stan Rodgers . most expended on the Cats or any critter ,I speak to them in French ,Spanish, & Zulu. and other tongues like my limited Arabic , Hindi,& Indonesian . WHY ! well unless you use a language you forget it. I once met a girl who told me she did two years at uni learning French . I asked" Do you speak it" She said "No" I wondered how she could do that when three weeks hitching in France would serve her better ..However I digress. I think Cyten & Sam nailed it re the Lazzarino lock And thankyou for your kind thoughts .
Regards Rudyard

I'm 54 which isn't young or old. We have a local wood shop co-op with lots of machines. I had 4 former patients who were well known (locally) muzzle loader builders. Unfortunately all have gone to the great beyond and there are none left in my rural area. So - I'm just teaching myself as well as I can. I have no fear of mistakes or critiques so I'll be posting my progress here. Tonights job is to repair a 12" bandsaw that I found by the road this last weekend. Its a 1940's craftsman. The motor works great and I have sourced the only broken part I could find so far. It was in the parking lot of the metal salvage yard. I could tell that whoever dropped it off wanted someone to fix it because the broken bits were bagged up. Anyway, I'll be posting quite a bit as I scratch build this odd rifle that I have planned.

SDSmlf · Jul 9, 2024

Philip Chua said:
12" bandsaw that I found by the road this last weekend. It’s a 1940's craftsman.

Believe my Craftsman bandsaw was made in the 1950s. If the tires and guides are in good shape you should be set.

Rudyard · Jul 9, 2024

Dear Philip. I know no specific book on just locks but if you have a particular period & nation in mind I could likley direct you to a good reference work .I have like any' Student of Arms' gathered a good library Regards Rudyard

sportster73hp · Jul 9, 2024

I have the same lock. Believe I got it from eBay.
Now I know the history of it.

oreclan · Jul 9, 2024

Philip Chua said:
Howdy all,
Well, I did one of those “make an offer” thing and ended up with this. Sold as a Miquelet which it isn’t. What it is I’m not sure. Seller said 18th century. I’m thinking 20th century but no clue where. The sear is nearly impossible to depress - maybe due to a tight spring. Seems crude and no support for the tumbler. I’m inclined to send it back but before I did wanted to be sure this is just a semi-modern thing. Or - I may keep it for my collection of weird locks.

Dixie Gun Works lock. I have one, also.

Philip Chua · Jul 9, 2024

oreclan said:
Dixie Gun Works lock. I have one, also.

Did you ever remove the cock from the tumbler arm? Would really like to completely disassemble this. There looks to be a pin or something going crossways through the outer arm of the tumbler. In the pics of the cleaner one above I can clearly see the square shape of the tumbler arm.

sportster73hp · Jul 9, 2024

Philip Chua said:
Did you ever remove the cock from the tumbler arm? Would really like to completely disassemble this. There looks to be a pin or something going crossways through the outer arm of the tumbler. In the pics of the cleaner one above I can clearly see the square shape of the tumbler arm.

I have not done anything with mine yet. The pan needs adjusting, does not close flat. The main spring to tumbler clearance needs something, it bottoms out. There is no half cock and full cock notch seems a little deep.
The fit of the tumbler to cock is good. It is not round so the pin/wedge is only to keep them together. A simple punch should remove it.

Philip Chua · Jul 9, 2024

Rudyard said:
Dear Philip. I know no specific book on just locks but if you have a particular period & nation in mind I could likley direct you to a good reference work .I have like any' Student of Arms' gathered a good library Regards Rudyard

Well I have that English lock that I got thinking it was a Snaphance. I plan to order a snaphance (or Miquelet) castings set from Blackley and Sons or TRS if they have one in stock. I think I may be able to build one up from pics. I have plan to mount the parts onto wood or other non-metallic lock plate to work out the geometry

sportster73hp said:
I have not done anything with mine yet. The pan needs adjusting, does not close flat. The main spring to tumbler clearance needs something, it bottoms out. There is no half cock and full cock notch seems a little deep.
The fit of the tumbler to cock is good. It is not round so the pin/wedge is only to keep them together. A simple punch should remove it.

yeah super stiff. I’ll try to drive that wedge out (gently). I want to use my dead smooth file to clean up all the bearing surfaces and I’m going to anneal the springs because they feel terribly stiff.

Sam squanch · Jul 9, 2024

There you go! Use your “weird flintlock” , get a smoothbore barrel ( could be an old shotgun barrel) a plank of wood, and practice by building a Portuguese trade gun! Doesn’t have to be fancy , drive some brass tacks in the stock- and just paint the stock black or red! Be an unusual wall hanger, and you get some practice in gun building. It can be a little crude, the originals were!

Coinneach · Jul 9, 2024

Philip Chua said:
Howdy all,
Well, I did one of those “make an offer” thing and ended up with this. Sold as a Miquelet which it isn’t. What it is I’m not sure. Seller said 18th century. I’m thinking 20th century but no clue where. The sear is nearly impossible to depress - maybe due to a tight spring. Seems crude and no support for the tumbler. I’m inclined to send it back but before I did wanted to be sure this is just a semi-modern thing. Or - I may keep it for my collection of weird locks.

Why not gift it to the Baldwin guy for his next movie role ?

1950DAVE · Jul 9, 2024

What and be an accessory to a murder?

rickystl · Jul 10, 2024

Hello ALL. Don't know how I missed this Thread earlier. Sam and Rudyard have identified correctly. As mentioned, these locks supposedly made in Belgium during he early 1900's for the African trade. As I was told, the sale for most of the locks never went through and Turner Kirkland bought the entire allotment. The locks appear to have been made with total economy in mind. Just the bare essentials. They were made to look like a rough copy of a Portuguese lock during the original flintlock period. Probably due to past Portuguese contact in Africa where the locals would recognize the style of the lock. I think it was Turner who nick-named them "Lazarino" locks. LOL Portuguese locks, at first glance, look like Spanish miquelet locks. But the mainspring is on the inside of the lock plate.

Right now, on the famous Gun-B__________r website, there is one of those Belgium made trade muskets - Dixie called it the Elaphant Gun back then, as I recall. These pop up for sale every once in a while at various auctions. BUT !! this one has the same Portuguese style lock on it. First time I've ever seen this. All the others had one or two-piece flintlocks.

Rick

rickystl · Jul 10, 2024

Philip Chua said:
Did you ever remove the cock from the tumbler arm? Would really like to completely disassemble this. There looks to be a pin or something going crossways through the outer arm of the tumbler. In the pics of the cleaner one above I can clearly see the square shape of the tumbler arm.

Hi Philip

Maybe I can lend a hand here. As Sam and Rudyard mention, the locks can be made to shoot. I sent mine out to have the lock tuned (best as possible), polished out a little further, frizzen hardened, etc. That pin is indeed what holds the hammer to the tumbler arm. You can try tapping it out with a hammer and 1/16" punch. If it doesn't want to move, it will need to be drilled out, and a new pin installed later. You will notice that small nub in front of the hammer arm that looks like it's for a hammer stop. On ORIGINAL Portuguese locks, that nub would turn left and right and act as an external, dog-style safety. But on these Belgium locks, it's just for show. A bit of work on these locks will make them look and function better. I'll post pics of my Belgium re-worked locks along with a couple of original Portuguese locks.

Rick

Rudyard · Jul 10, 2024

rickystl said:
Hi Philip

Maybe I can lend a hand here. As Sam and Rudyard mention, the locks can be made to shoot. I sent mine out to have the lock tuned (best as possible), polished out a little further, frizzen hardened, etc. That pin is indeed what holds the hammer to the tumbler arm. You can try tapping it out with a hammer and 1/16" punch. If it doesn't want to move, it will need to be drilled out, and a new pin installed later. You will notice that small nub in front of the hammer arm that looks like it's for a hammer stop. On ORIGINAL Portuguese locks, that nub would turn left and right and act as an external, dog-style safety. But on these Belgium locks, it's just for show. A bit of work on these locks will make them look and function better. I'll post pics of my Belgium re-worked locks along with a couple of original Portuguese locks.

Rick

The slanted piece mid ships of the lock might usefully form a' half cock' by a wedge like piece of steel connected by a string like length tied to the gun or a bag perhaps to provide a half cock/safety my lock is from the same stable but has stamped engraveing .' Must be the 'de lux model '. If you do anneal the springs they will be useless untill you re harden then temper them. not a job to undertake lightly you might file it thinner but Ide advise leave as it is. '.part of its charm 'eager to see your pics .
Regards Rudyard

rickystl · Jul 10, 2024

Here is my RE-WORKED Belgium lock. A different top screw (from TRS) to give it a better look, frizzen hardening, slight mainspring reduction, and if you look closely, a second notch cut in the tumbler for a safety. Should have had the lock polished out more - much more. LOL Oh well. But it functions much better.

For you guys that decide to make a gun using these locks, might be a good idea to purchase a second lock (if the price is reasonable) for spare parts.

Rick

Weird eBay flintlock

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