Poor man’s guns

TFoley · Aug 12, 2024

Amazingly, I found a 'poor boy' rifle at an auction here in UK. I'd only gone to see a live auction in progress. In its original form, it had been nicely done, with the name 'Kimmel' on the lock, but no other marks that I could see.

The really bad news was that somebody had added modern sling swivels, one of which was brazed to the barrel.

I may not have mentioned that is had been 'sporterised' by chopping almost two feet off the stock - by estimation, that is, as the barrel had been cut to exactly 24".

Smokey Plainsman · Aug 12, 2024

I also like a shrimp po boy sandwich boy thems good.

tenngun · Aug 12, 2024

M. De Land said:
All you have to be is literate to read a metallurgy report to gain this information. Lots of things are gotten away with for a while that are not really the safest route when using low pressure black powder as the propellant.
I do happen to be a trade schooled qualified Gunsmith though having knowledge of barrel steel alloys and have threaded and fitted all manor of rifle, pistol,shotgun and muzzle loading barrel from rifled and smooth bored blanks.
I have also witnessed and examined a fine rifle barreled with 12L14 split with a moderate black powder, patched ball load that was only short started which happens frequently at match shoots. This would not happen with 1134,4140-50 certified barrel steel. It would very likely not even bulge let alone split. The difference is the shock load resistance of the alloy used.
DOM is quite often cold drawn which is another negative for shock load resistance.

[Insult deleted by Stumpkiller - who shoots a L.C. Rice 12L14 rifled barrel and a Colerain 12L14 smooth barrel and still has all my fingers
Ed Rayl 8620
Green Mountain 1137
Colerain 12L14
L.C. Rice 12L14/4140 (Now absorbed by Bambi Chambers)
Oregon 12L14
Don/John Getz 12L14
Longhammock 12L14/1137
FCI – Charlie Burton 12L14 (formerly owned by J. Goodien)
Jim McLemore 4150
Sleepy Hills 4150 (out of business)
Robert (Bobby) Hoyt 12L14].

Sure make you wonder how for six centuries they didn’t blow up every gun they made before the science of metallurgy was born

tenngun · Aug 12, 2024

TFoley said:
Amazingly, I found a 'poor boy' rifle at an auction here in UK. I'd only gone to see a live auction in progress. In its original form, it had been nicely done, with the name 'Kimmel' on the lock, but no other marks that I could see.

The really bad news was that somebody had added modern sling swivels, one of which was brazed to the barrel.

I may not have mentioned that is had been 'sporterised' by chopping almost two feet off the stock - by estimation, that is, as the barrel had been cut to exactly 24".

Sad, but back in the day they butchered guns a lot

earlwb · Aug 12, 2024

tenngun said:
Sad, but back in the day they butchered guns a lot

I remember in the 1960s that you became the laughing stock and brunt of jokes if you showed up with a muzzleloader for the hunting trip. But I bagged my deer though. So no surprise if a person thought making their ML look more modern might lead to less embarrassment. But a shorter carbine like ML might actually be handy in dense underbrush or a forest too.

One other thought was during the Great Depression and WW2 trying to find cartridges might have been an exercise of futility. All companies were all in on war time production thus nothing for the civilian market. A flintlock was very valuable at the time. They would even make their own black powder too.

When I was young in the sixties and seventies most everyone was still quite frugal with their cartridge expenditures. A box of twenty would last you for several years or longer. One to three rounds to check the rifle’s accuracy and then one round for the deer and so on. Some guys would shoot one round per deer season with no target practice. Granted you might shoot another round for an elk or for a bear too. In the state I lived in at the time you could only get a permit for one big game animal a year. Thus a box of ammo could really last a long time. I knew some folks that back during the Great Depression used one .22rimfire round for a hunt to bag a rabbit for the cooking stove too. That box of 50 had to last a long time as money was very tight.

Not like today where some guys can almost shoot out their barrel target practicing and then fire off that one round for bagging a big game animal.

mikesto44 · Aug 12, 2024

Late to this party an WOW...! Just to say I have used Getz, FCI, Rice, Douglas and Knetting barrels in the muzzleloaders I have owned and built.. Never ever have I had a problem Period...! If you do something really stupid maybe..! But after 55 years plus of doing this I haven't had any barrel problems.
Plus if you ever pull a part an old antique and look at the breech area. You just might have a coronary. But yet they survived hard use for over a hundred years.!
Plus I believe Kibler uses Rice barrels ? Maybe he should stop production and recall all his guns..?
Geez.....!

tenngun · Aug 12, 2024

M. De Land said:
DOM (drawn over mandrel ) is not barrel certified steel and should not safely be used as such course neither is 12L14 !

11 bang bang did testing with a DOM barrel in .62
They shot increasing loads starting with 200 grains 1F. Increase charges to 800 grains and one ball without mishap. Atlast using 1040 grains and two ball the barrel failed.
Never use a DOM barrel if you plan on using a thousand grains and two ball as they will fail

longcruise · Aug 12, 2024

M. De Land said:
After all that bruhaha DOM is still not certified barrel steel and should not be used for firearms !

I'm confused about the certification for barrel steel. Who sets the standards and what is the standard for PSI?

earlwb said:
I knew some folks that back during the Great Depression used one .22rimfire round for a hunt to bag a rabbit for the cooking stove too

My uncle told me about how my grandfather got him and his brother a shotgun and a box of shells. This was in the UP and Ruffed Grouse (known as partridge there) were the game of Interest. Grandpa told them "I want to see one bird for every shot fired". Obviously that obviated any foolish thoughts about wingshooting.

There came a time when they killed two birds with one shot. They were relieved to have that spare shot available.

waksupi · Aug 12, 2024

I remember reading an account that stated many of the guns traded to the Indians early on, did blow up after being fired maybe a half dozen times.
At the old Sharon Rifle Barrel shop, they took a paper towel tube, wrapped in in duct tape, capped one end, then loaded it with 1400 gr. powder and a rubber ball of some sort. The tube didn't blow up, proving for all time that we can just tape together some paper towel tubes, and save a lot of money when you do your next build.

oreclan · Aug 12, 2024

oldwood said:
Coffin nail.........If you're going Period Correct , Most coffins in the 18th century , would have short iron square cut nails . The boards , if there was a sawmill around , would be cut thin enough to accommodate the length of the nails available. If no lumber was available , bark slabs would be pealed from an appropriate tree. The bark would be nailed togather with oak split nails. One step further , on the frontier far from civilization , no coffin , just a hole on the ground. In Western Md. , there is a mountain called Negro Mtn. . It is so named because a black frontiersman was traveling with a trader named Cresap and his crew of trader employees. They were headed west on the Deleware Indian Chief Nemacolin trail , (SR 40) toward Uniontown , Pa.. Cresap and his employees were ambushed on Negro Mtn.. The black frontiersman was badly wounded in the fight. At the Black fellow's request , he was left there to die at his own request in a tomb made of large rocks. No coffin , no nails , no oak splits , or anything , just a Mtn. 30 miles west of Fort Cumberland , Md. , w/his memorial on it. ........Sorry , I got off in the weeds w/that story...........oldwood

And some do gooder complained about the sign that said " Negro Mountain" on I 68 and it was removed!
People do not bother to investigate local history before "going off" on the locals.
My ancestors the Lynn's were part of the group.
Lee(?) Teter did a painting of it years ago.
The frontiersman man have been Col. Cresap's servant and/ or friend whose name was Nemesis or Caesar.

M. De Land · Aug 12, 2024

tenngun said:
Sure make you wonder how for six centuries they didn’t blow up every gun they made before the science of metallurgy was born

Well actually they did frequently come apart hence the Springfield Armory pressure load testing of barrels before release. Now days I buy un-threaded blanks routinely that have not been ever load tested before release and the reason is ever so much better steel alloys and quality control that has pretty much negated the need for proof marking after individual pressure testing.
Still, I won't let any gun I work on leave the shop without load testing.

Rudyard · Aug 12, 2024

Loyalist Dave said:
Well according to the ledger for George Morgan's store in Kaskaskia in the 1760's, the inexpensive gun was the fusil, aka "fuzee", costing about half, if not less, than a rifle of the same era, and the rifles were ordered to be "Lancaster pattern".

You might do what I did, and obtain a Pedersoli Indian Trade Gun, or a kit of the same, and modify it a tiny bit. Swap out the steel NW-tradegun-style trigger guard for a very simple brass guard, and remove the serpent sideplate. Two screws hold the serpent plate in place, so IF you buy a kit, you might simply fill in the hole for the forward screw before finishing the stock, and then only use the single lock screw for the lock. The lock is made with the characteristic Pedersoli wood screw forward of the frizzen spring bend. After that it's up to you if you will use the included butt piece with screws OR swap that out, and modify the butt of the stock to accept a flat brass piece with nails or nothing at all.
.

Loyalist Dave said:
Loyalist Dave You got it down well if I always inleted the dragons even on the' in the whites' I for many years kept what was dubbed a' NZ Poor Boy' rifle a half stocked affair with a pistol grip because it was a too small reject from a duplicaver it had ' saddle pipes' .no nose cap. or pesky tail pipe ,one pin along with the tang nail , no side plate did fit a butt plate & later added a wooden tool box .used a much rusted original guard and a ' second' India made flint lock. its 45 barrel a reject I was given but I later fitted a 50 cal then a 54 cal 7/8ths" a f .I Ieft years in the US to do the Rendesvous ect and folks would ask what it was so 'NZ Poor Boy' was what it was & still is near 40 years later made it 1977 from memory just looked it up 1979 & number 35 been a great companion all these years & I wouldnt have 5 pounds in it other than the added barrels ..The down side of fine expensive guns is you feel obliged to nurse them' Poor boy' was never neglected but took all the bush miles I plowed through .and there where lots. Rudyard

Loyalist Dave said:
View attachment 340343

LD

M. De Land · Aug 12, 2024

mikesto44 said:
Late to this party an WOW...! Just to say I have used Getz, FCI, Rice, Douglas and Knetting barrels in the muzzleloaders I have owned and built.. Never ever have I had a problem Period...! If you do something really stupid maybe..! But after 55 years plus of doing this I haven't had any barrel problems.
Plus if you ever pull a part an old antique and look at the breech area. You just might have a coronary. But yet they survived hard use for over a hundred years.!
Plus I believe Kibler uses Rice barrels ? Maybe he should stop production and recall all his guns..?
Geez.....!

Rudyard · Aug 12, 2024

M. De Land said:
DOM (drawn over mandrel ) is not barrel certified steel and should not safely be used as such course neither is 12L14 !

You want to live forever ?. Personally Ide use it if I couldn't get impurity ridden iron. My choice however is for Damascus .

Rob G said:
If the cap lock era is acceptable, my vote would be an under hammer of some sort. I’ve just acquired a Hopkins and Allen (Numerich Arms), and not knowing squat about them but just their engineering, I’d have to say they are about the cheapest thing to make. Two moving parts and the trigger guard for a main spring.

True enough
Rudyard

M. De Land · Aug 12, 2024

M. De Land said:
Well actually they did frequently come apart hence the Springfield Armory pressure load testing of barrels before release. Now days I buy un-threaded blanks routinely that have not been ever load tested before release and the reason is ever so much better steel alloys and quality control that has pretty much negated the need for proof marking after individual pressure testing.
Still, I won't let any gun I work on leave the shop without load testing.

waksupi said:
I remember reading an account that stated many of the guns traded to the Indians early on, did blow up after being fired maybe a half dozen times.
At the old Sharon Rifle Barrel shop, they took a paper towel tube, wrapped in in duct tape, capped one end, then loaded it with 1400 gr. powder and a rubber ball of some sort. The tube didn't blow up, proving for all time that we can just tape together some paper towel tubes, and save a lot of money when you do your next build.

We tend to remember our successes more than our failures hence if we get away with something long enough we dub it safe. Same is true of occasional gun blow ups but when we start to investigate what we don't want to talk about we often find a whole new scenario that is actually more dangerous than we though.
I have a very fine Douglas barrel Hawken I rebarreled in .54 that shoots like a house a fire and is made of 12L14. I have shot it a lot in many matches over the years but know the reason Douglas stopped making barrels of 12L14 was suites from barrel failure.
Hot rolled 12L14 apparently has better shock load numbers than does cold rolled which I have read is what Douglas was using but it still is not very good and gets worse as the temperature drops. I have personally been present and then later examined (bore scoped) a very well made muzzle loader from a noted maker that split from a very mild charged patched ball that was short started.
Short starting is a rather common loading failure and happens more often than is commonly realized but almost never results in barrel damage.
The point here is why use inferior steel alloy to construct a gun and not use the best certified barrel alloy available for very little if any more cost.

M. De Land · Aug 12, 2024

longcruise said:
I'm confused about the certification for barrel steel. Who sets the standards and what is the standard for PSI?

My uncle told me about how my grandfather got him and his brother a shotgun and a box of shells. This was in the UP and Ruffed Grouse (known as partridge there) were the game of Interest. Grandpa told them "I want to see one bird for every shot fired". Obviously that obviated any foolish thoughts about wingshooting.

There came a time when they killed two birds with one shot. They were relieved to have that spare shot available.

I believe SAAMI ( Sporting Arm and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute) does along with a couple of other outfits that test various alloy characteristics.
ONe of the main stress tests for barrel steel along with elongation, compression, tensil is shock load or hoop stress testing. A number above 42 in one of the notch testing methods (Izod and Sharpe) should be present for good shock load strength. 12L14 cold rolled is around 5 on this scale according to the report I read from a metallurgist.
The reason it is used so much is because it machines beautifully making a very smooth bore interiors and the fact that generally it is strong enough when hot rolled and a good deal cheaper than barrel certified steel.
12L14 is classified as a screw stock alloy along with many other applications, none of which is gun barrel quality!
Also the very nature of muzzle loading puts it in the "reloader"category which makes it quite litigation proof. Apparently this did not apply in Douglas Barrel Co. case if the article on it was accurate.
DOM is made of 1020 alloy which is plain carbon steel with .20 carbon added and can be both cold or hot rolled before it is drawn over a mandrel through a die to expand it to the tube diameter required. This draw process stresses the alloy a great deal and is likely the main reason it is unsuited for barrel steel.

TFoley · Aug 12, 2024

tenngun said:
Sad, but back in the day they butchered guns a lot

In England/UK? Given the hoops we have to jump through to shoot even a replica of an antique firearm, let alone the genuine thing, I was horrified to see that butchery of what had been, over here, a very rare thing indeed. I can count the number of 18th century American-made guns that I've seen on the fingers of one hand.

tenngun · Aug 12, 2024

M. De Land said:
Well actually they did frequently come apart hence the Springfield Armory pressure load testing of barrels before release. Now days I buy un-threaded blanks routinely that have not been ever load tested before release and the reason is ever so much better steel alloys and quality control that has pretty much negated the need for proof marking after individual pressure testing.
Still, I won't let any gun I work on leave the shop without load testing.

Relatively few, and I bet poor care and poor loads was the cause of failure then…as today

M. De Land · Aug 12, 2024

TFoley said:
In England/UK? Given the hoops we have to jump through to shoot even a replica of an antique firearm, let alone the genuine thing, I was horrified to see that butchery of what had been, over here, a very rare thing indeed. I can count the number of 18th century American-made guns that I've seen on the fingers of one hand.

Sounds like you folks better unlimber your long bows now that the Muslims are taking over since the government has all but disarmed you.

M. De Land · Aug 12, 2024

tenngun said:
Relatively few, and I bet poor care and poor loads was the cause of failure then…as today

The Springfield Armory testing was on brand new barrels before issuance. Far as I could discern from the book every barrel was stress tested with double ball and twice the normal charge.
It didn't comment on failure rate but apparently it was often enough to warrant that all barrels be tested !

Poor man’s guns

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

62 Cal.

16"/50 Caliber

Cannon

Cannon

36 Cal.

50 Cal.

Cannon

70 Cal.

Ric Carter

45 Cal.

75 Cal.

69 Cal.

75 Cal.

69 Cal.

75 Cal.

75 Cal.

62 Cal.

Cannon

75 Cal.

75 Cal.

Similar threads

Join the conversation!

Join today and get all the highlights of this community direct to your inbox. It's FREE!