Poor man’s guns

[Rudyard]

Something a little different. Poor man’s Shishane, Miquelet from Ottoman Empire. Usually highly decorated, this one has one brass barrel band, tang cover, and strip on the butt. No butt plate, just a single nailView attachment 340446

Great!. So often' Less' can be 'more ' .
Rudyard's thinking

 

[Rudyard]

DOM (drawn over mandrel ) is not barrel certified steel and should not safely be used as such course neither is 12L14 !

Do you want to live forever ? . Umteen thousands of ML s are in use safley with barrels you consider unsafe I would have used a lot of different makers barrel as well as a lot of original barrels of who knows what iron & steel barrels none ever failed proof or burst far as I know .So you who probably never made a barrel know better than all the listed makers & did you leave Orion out ?Ive used lots of them. He had an idiot' Consumer advocate' who condemned Orion barrels a firm that in various changes made thousands .' Charpy test' waffle ect the idiot never Made a barrel I shoot one fowling piece that the maker of the barrel died in1720 .The rabbits don't know this and the effect is no different to if ide used a nitro breach loader .Well ime saying this I don't have such a gun to compare
.Rudyard's view on your scaremongering .

 

[longcruise]

I think the Vatican is a country

 

[bud in pa]

I would like to know how many antique wrought iron forge welded barrels could be Magnafluxed or X-rayed and not show a flaw in the forge weld? Anybody know what the tensile strength of a wrought iron barrel is? Not looking to argue, just curious.

 

[tenngun]

I would like to know how many antique wrought iron forge welded barrels could be Magnafluxed or X-rayed and not show a flaw in the forge weld? Anybody know what the tensile strength of a wrought iron barrel is? Not looking to argue, just curious.

And we shouldn’t forget the amount of brass barred gun

 

[Rudyard]

I wonder how they would fair at 0 to 20 degrees F?

Just a mention as a shot a 451 ML made with an old Martini Henry barrel in 46 below zero (not counting wind chill factor ) that's 70 odd degrees of frost .This was at Macenzie BC in 1972 we worked 7 days alternate & I was determined to shoot My mate ran me to a gravel quarry. I set a target at 45 or so yards but by the last of 8 shots could no longer grasp the rifle so gave it best still got the target & the rifle it didn't burst .Not that I recommend .Such .
I once shot a Canvas Eye on a frozen lake in the Washington State Scadlands flint lock double gun . It fell by the spring open water and I was determined to recover it, no sticks ,no dog, just a few bullrushes the water to be open had to be above freezing so I took all off jumped in recovered my duck & dressed rather quickly They breed em hard in Sheffield ! But my Goose pimples where getting Goose pimples. A friend made the gun & believe he used hollow bar that's Dom? not sure but it didnt burst .
Recollecting Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

I would like to know how many antique wrought iron forge welded barrels could be Magnafluxed or X-rayed and not show a flaw in the forge weld? Anybody know what the tensile strength of a wrought iron barrel is? Not looking to argue, just curious.

Who cares if it stands proof it dosn't matter . I owned a Double gun By Samuel Nock had a Grey 'in the left barrel half way down , bit of smoke came out so I loaded that Brl under the right barrel charge . One day in Lincolnshire, An old hare ran past me I swung the gun & gave it the right barrel then bowled in fine style with the ' Gray. 'barrel .
Brass is supposed to go brittle with age yet I've seen a single 12 bore with a brass barrel shot with out consequence .Felix Werder of Zurich was famous for his light brass barrels hammered while many in the age (c1650 ) had rolled & soldered ones Bill Kennedy offered Brass Barrels I've made blunderbusses brass & bronze & Iron but I didn't see if it was the proper impurity ridden iron . it Didnt burst , Once got right under neath a Magpie in a holly bush I let go expecting a few feathers but away it went unscathed .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Snooterpup]

Washington DC is not legally America anyway, it is a separate entity, a corporation of it's own, DC stands for District of Columbia! Most Americans are not aware of this fact ! Same deal with the City of London and the Vatican. They are legally out side of the countries they reside in.

Washington DC, is definitely not a state but rather a state of confusion. I was born there but long gone from there. Some years ago when purchasing a firearm from Cabelas, I encountered a problem picking which state I was born in. Washington DC was not in the list. The clerk told me to select Washington (the state). Amazed that he did not understand they are two different things.
Finally we resolved the issue with a more knowledgeable senior salesman.
Ran into the same issue trying to get an “enhanced” driver’s license, but finally was resolved as well.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Metallurgists are taught and know this fact and make guide lines for manufactures to follow to prevent accidents.

Please post your college degree(s) in Engineering so we can see them ... or please enlighten us on the kinetic factors involved in the precipitate phases for the ferrite or austenite phases? Or explain the relationships of the K, L, M & N shells?

I've read numerous accident reports on fatalities and mame-ings from gun failures almost always involving use of barrels made of unsuitable metal and over loads.

And how many were EXPRESSLY DoM barrels for muzzleloading? As so far, just from the 'history' on this site, we know of exactly ONE instance (reported by Cap&Ball) attribtuable to the DoM barrel steel itself, from the 100s of 1,000s used and/or still in use, disregarding the 12L14 Douglas barrel-type incidents for this response. And I guess Don Getz's studies where he had made cardboard tube 'gun barrels' and yet charges up to a few 100 grains all exited the open end of the tube (without bursting the tube) don't count either.

NO metal or degree still stop idiots from being idiots ... i.e., to your point about unsuitables or over loads et al.

On post #42 you listed but 7 of the top barrel sources in the US for muzzleloading barrels out there - using 12L14 - and yet you keep barking up the wrong tree with your harpish opines, oh ... backed up by a mail order gunsmith school paid for piece of paper to boot.

You'd be best advised to go sell off all of your MZL stuff and just take up golf ... but just be aware the heads can break off and could hurt, main, or kill someone ...

 

[M. De Land]

Please post your college degree(s) in Engineering so we can see them ... or please enlighten us on the kinetic factors involved in the precipitate phases for the ferrite or austenite phases? Or explain the relationships of the K, L, M & N shells?



And how many were EXPRESSLY DoM barrels for muzzleloading? As so far, just from the 'history' on this site, we know of exactly ONE instance (reported by Cap&Ball) attribtuable to the DoM barrel steel itself, from the 100s of 1,000s used and/or still in use, disregarding the 12L14 Douglas barrel-type incidents for this response. And I guess Don Getz's studies where he had made cardboard tube 'gun barrels' and yet charges up to a few 100 grains all exited the open end of the tube (without bursting the tube) don't count either.

NO metal or degree still stop idiots from being idiots ... i.e., to your point about unsuitables or over loads et al.

On post #42 you listed but 7 of the top barrel sources in the US for muzzleloading barrels out there - using 12L14 - and yet you keep barking up the wrong tree with your harpish opines, oh ... backed up by a mail order gunsmith school paid for piece of paper to boot.

You'd be best advised to go sell off all of your MZL stuff and just take up golf ... but just be aware the heads can break off and could hurt, main, or kill someone ...

You sound like a person who smokes and drinks heavily and tries to justify it as healthy !

 

[M. De Land]

All the evidence is that cared for and loaded properly even double or triple loaded are completely safe

Over loading is never safe even with certified barrel steel alloy hence the term proof testing.

 

[M. De Land]

While I cannot speak for the Vatican City, I can, as a resident here in UK, speak about the City of London.

Sir, you are wrong in your assertion that the city of London is somehow 'outside' the country in which it is located.

Please read - 'The City of London is a district of Greater London. The city's boundaries have remained almost unchanged since the Middle Ages. Although it is now only a small part of the metropolis, it is a notable part of central London. The City holds city status in its own right, and is also a ceremonial county. Often referred to as the City, or the Square Mile, it is just over one square mile, 1.12 sq mi (2.90 km2) in area.

It is here in the City of London where most of the United Kingdom's financial trade is done. It is a very small area, only a square mile, and has a very small resident population (8,000). However, many people come to work here and during the day it can be very busy, with some 300,000 people in it.

"London" now refers to Greater London, which is made up of 32 boroughs (including the City of Westminster and the City of London). The city is in central London and is the oldest part of the city, dating back to Roman times. The City of London has its own mayor, the Lord Mayor of London, an office separate from (and much older than) the Mayor of London. There are other ancient features, dating back to medieval times. The city has its own police force, the City of London Police.'

None of these entities are subject to the same legal status as the countries around them, The World bankers have insulated themselves in these three main areas of the world from this a long time ago and Washington DC is the new kid on the block.
But the world is slowly waking up to this tyranny and corrections will eventually be made.

 

[TFoley]

None of these entities are subject to the same legal status as the countries around them, The World bankers have insulated themselves in these three main areas of the world from this a long time ago and Washington DC is the new kid on the block.
But the world is slowly waking up to this tyranny and corrections will eventually be made.

The City of London is subject to the same laws of industry, commerce and criminality as the rest of the United Kingdom. It was called the 'city' because it was originally contained within the actual walls of Londinium, the Roman town built here in the 1st century AD.

Westminster is also called 'The City of Westminster'. That is because it contains the giant church called Westminster Abbey, once upon a time in a piece of land called Thorney Island.

William the Conqueror was crowned there on Christmas Day 1066.

It is ALL inside Metropolitan London and as much part of the United Kingdom as anywhere else in UK.

 

[M. De Land]

Please post your college degree(s) in Engineering so we can see them ... or please enlighten us on the kinetic factors involved in the precipitate phases for the ferrite or austenite phases? Or explain the relationships of the K, L, M & N shells?



And how many were EXPRESSLY DoM barrels for muzzleloading? As so far, just from the 'history' on this site, we know of exactly ONE instance (reported by Cap&Ball) attribtuable to the DoM barrel steel itself, from the 100s of 1,000s used and/or still in use, disregarding the 12L14 Douglas barrel-type incidents for this response. And I guess Don Getz's studies where he had made cardboard tube 'gun barrels' and yet charges up to a few 100 grains all exited the open end of the tube (without bursting the tube) don't count either.

NO metal or degree still stop idiots from being idiots ... i.e., to your point about unsuitables or over loads et al.

On post #42 you listed but 7 of the top barrel sources in the US for muzzleloading barrels out there - using 12L14 - and yet you keep barking up the wrong tree with your harpish opines, oh ... backed up by a mail order gunsmith school paid for piece of paper to boot.

You'd be best advised to go sell off all of your MZL stuff and just take up golf ... but just be aware the heads can break off and could hurt, main, or kill someone ...

The City of London is subject to the same laws of industry, commerce and criminality as the rest of the United Kingdom. It was called the 'city' because it was originally contained within the actual walls of Londinium, the Roman town built here in the 1st century AD.

Westminster is also called 'The City of Westminster'. That is because it contains the giant church called Westminster Abbey, once upon a time in a piece of land called Thorney Island.

William the Conqueror was crowned there on Christmas Day 1066.

It is ALL inside Metropolitan London and as much part of the United Kingdom as anywhere else in UK.

Your drinking the Cool-Aid and have been put to sleep.

 

[tenngun]

Over loading is never safe even with certified barrel steel alloy hence the term proof testing.

Yes, but I have four ml three with green mountain and one with Indian barrels. Not a one has ever been proofed

 

[cebusey]

Washington DC, is definitely not a state but rather a state of confusion. I was born there but long gone from there. Some years ago when purchasing a firearm from Cabelas, I encountered a problem picking which state I was born in. Washington DC was not in the list. The clerk told me to select Washington (the state). Amazed that he did not understand they are two different things.
Finally we resolved the issue with a more knowledgeable senior salesman.
Ran into the same issue trying to get an “enhanced” driver’s license, but finally was resolved as well.

Coming from another born in the district and long gone from there - DC is part of the US. It was made from land taken from Maryland and Virginia with the intention that no state would "own" the capitol. I wish sometimes it wasn't but it is. I stand with Snooterpup

 

[waksupi]

I just checked several websites on DOM tubing. Not one mentions or recommends it's use as gun barrels.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

You sound like a person who smokes and drinks heavily and tries to justify it as healthy !

I noticed you completely avoided the question and challenge …

If you wish to continue on this personal crusade to have vendors switch over to 4140 steel or something similar … get off your horse and do something about it.

Write to them … just don’t gripe to us.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I just checked several websites on DOM tubing. Not one mentions or recommends it's use as gun barrels.

Let it be known … that by itself means absolutely nothing …

Fresh off on DoM tubing there is hot drawn and cold drawn, the poster De Land attribute both as the same, but they are not, which is just further proof of his utter ignorance …

You can look it up, but I have posted here before DoM barrels proof tested up to 800 grains or more, including testing by the famous testing lab, HP White.

 

[M. De Land]

I noticed you completely avoided the question and challenge …

Well, since you didn’t provide any of your credentials, but came back with a not so pithy reply, here are my credentials …

-My Grandfather started the 2nd oldest locksmith shop in the United States and had a full machine shop in the back of the store.

-My Father then continued the business and brought up each of his 4 sons, in the trade. This is when the trade was more of an art, replacing huge bronze pieces, by forging and silver soldering new pieces to replace parts in old locks.

-I entered the GE Apprentice Machinist course at GE Aircraft Engines in Lynn, Mass, and graduated 1st out of 86 people of my class. Numerous metallurgy classes were part of the curriculum.

-I then entered the GE manufacturing development program and also graduated 1st in my class, while also earning my Manufacturing Engineering degree.

-Then I got my Mechanical Engineering degree, while I also apprenticed 2 to 3 nights per week, with the Lynn police Armorer, who taught me how to gunsmith Smith & Wesson and Colt revolvers. Note this was actual hands-on experience, not a mail-in program like you ’paid for’.

-Continuing my career at GE, I was the youngest licensed Designated Manufacturing Inspection Representative (DMIR) to sign off engines for commercial air travel and received the highest award ever, at the youngest age ever in FAA history. Not one engine I ever signed off, ever had a quality problem, ever!

-I then went on to get advanced Masters degrees in both engineering and pharmacy. Oh and by the way, I also had a Federal FFL as a gunsmith for over 20 years and some of my pistols I built were tops in their State for bullseye competition.

-After leaving GE Turbine Engines, ‘dirty engineering’, I went into biotech. I have commercialized over 20 drugs, including Herceptin, which is proven to completely eliminate breast cancer in over 50% of the woman who will ever have any sign of breast cancer.

-I have over 60 muzzleloaders in my collection, many DoM barrels, many I have proofed myself, 2 to 3X the standards loads.

What have you ever done … besides spout off your mouth and be an azzhat???????

If you wish to continue on this crusade to have vendors switch to 4140 steel or something similar … get off your azz and do something about it … write to them … just don’t gripe to us … otherwise shut up …

All that blow still doesn't change the fact that neither DOM or 12L14 is barrel certified steel alloy and no honest metallurgist who by the way are college trained engineers, will tell you they are.
I'm quite sure both DOM 1020 hot or cold drawn and 12L14 hot or cold drawn are safer than some early iron, welded scalp barrels, damascus and brass but they are not in the same league with modern barrel steel designed to withstand shock stress loading.
Why use inferior steel when you can get a superior steel alloy designed for the application intended ? You can do as you which but you can't change what is factually true no matter how much you huff and puff, denigrate and brow beat ! I hope you don't have to find out the hard way this truth !