• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Mainspring Fabrication

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Unless he might want to try to cast one. I guess maybe you didn't think of that possibility.

I doubt a casted spring would work for his lock, he specifically stated he needed to forge a spring. Indicating there are no mass production springs available.

Giving it a try is just not very relevant because it’s probably not going to work, and if it does work, it will only be a mess possibly creating new issues that did not previously exist.
 
Last edited:
Hi,
Jim I am not denigrating your springs but as I understand it, you went through a learning period milling your springs such that they did not risk taking a set after a period of use. I am not talking about breaking them, rather losing power over time because the grain of the metal runs straight through the bend as if you cut it from a solid block of wood. You wrote you thickened the metal at the bend as an added safety factor, which is good. But why did you feel you needed to do that as a safety factor? On a forged spring, there is no need to do that. Now the OP needs to make a spring. I would argue it is easier for him to forge a good spring than mill it unless he understands the nuances of milling a spring, which you learned. After all we have centuries experience with forged springs and only a decade or so with milled ones. I focus my comments on understanding the OP's needs and address them.

dave
Hi Dave, grain direction doesn't really exist beyond that which the mill rollers give it in bar production, and that only lasts until the first time the steel is heated into the austenite heat range which causes any grain direction present to become much more like common flake board in shape and position. There is a degree of direction made by the mill rollers during the production process, but it is, you might say, opposite of directional grain. All common mill steels contain occlusions and particle inclusions, voids and impurities, at a microscopic level which are stretched by the mill rollers into a parallel lineal direction. This never changes unless melted again. The last info I read on the subject claimed that the presence of these directional impurities and voids may increase strength very slightly and at most somewhere under 7/8%. Mr. Kibler I'm sure has newer and more accurate info than what I read years ago. For all practical purposes, grain direction is not a factor worthy of concern in making springs or knives.
 
Hi Wick,
Thanks for that insight. I was under the impression that rolled steel did have a grain direction worth considering. I was wrong so thank you for straightening me out.

dave
Well, it does have direction until its heated to somewhere over about 1330°F, which takes away the direction and somewhat changes the shape of the grains, so you were only half mistaken.
 
Grain structure will not change from austanitic to martensitic at below1300 degrees Cent--720 far. Bright Cherry Red (which is unlikely when bending stirp for gun springs) so the structure still runs along rolled steel if the strip is taken along the roll direction..O.D.
 
Grain structure will not change from austanitic to martensitic at below1300 degrees Cent--720 far. Bright Cherry Red (which is unlikely when bending stirp for gun springs) so the structure still runs along rolled steel if the strip is taken along the roll direction..O.D.
How do you get a powerful spring from austenitic steel, beyond the elasticity it would already possess when cooled, if you do not convert it to tempered martensite?
 
VERY interesting stuff !!
The conversion from austenitic steel to martensite actually happens during the quench process in the range of 400°f to 450°f. When it happens, it happens at the speed of sound. When you cool austenitic steel from in the range of 1475° to 1550° depending on the grade of steel, to under 900°, at that time, if wished, the cooling process could be arrested, and the austenitic phase could be held between 900°f and 450°f for a good while before the finish step is completed. I mention this just as an example of what can be done in the steel. This would be best done with a salt heat treat system, and there are some ways of quenching steel that require such a step. The final step would be to drop the heat below 400°f/450°f. Then martensite forms somewhere between those two degrees in commonly used high carbon steel. In normal average common procedure, you're simply going to immediately quench it from its recommended austenitic heat to below 400°f quickly. NO!!! I am not a metallurgist!! Not even close. I know a few basics I learned from a metallurgist and some research and reading, in order to heat treat my own blades and springs half way decent.
 
Last edited:
FYI for those interested, not all steels convert to full martensite instantly. The start is instant when it happens, but some steels are slower to complete conversion than others. O1 is one of those steels and in my experience with it, can take up to 10/12 minutes, even more on a scientific level. That can be good in blade making because if minor warpage is present from the quench and the blade is still just a tad too hot to handle without protection, you can hand straighten it in most cases within that 10/12 window. I never file checked the hardness for at least 20 minutes. I would recheck even a bit later and often, at least seemingly, find the steel harder than the first check. I used a set of Test files after I had gotten a range of results from a friend who had free access to a Rockwell tester. Test files don't take the place of a Rockwell tester, but test files are better than nothing. Poor ways for poor folks. I got to where I was accurate with the files to within 1or 2 Rockwell points by feel.
 
How do you get a powerful spring from austenitic steel, beyond the elasticity it would already possess when cooled, if you do not convert it to tempered mar
Grain structure will not change from austanitic to martensitic at below1300 degrees Cent--720 far. Bright Cherry Red (which is unlikely when bending stirp for gun springs) so the structure still runs along rolled steel if the strip is taken along the roll direction..O.D.
Do you realize 1300°Celsius is 2,372° Fahrenheit??
 
Last edited:
Grain structure will not change from austanitic to martensitic at below1300 degrees Cent--720 far. Bright Cherry Red (which is unlikely when bending stirp for gun springs) so the structure still runs along rolled steel if the strip is taken along the roll direction..O.D.
Do you realize 1300° centigrade is 2,372°Fahrenheit??
 
I would also like to thank all the professional gentlemen who presented the science and their practical experience with lock springs.

It may boil down to ease of manufacturing for the OP. It is difficult to accurately heat and forge even a small part with an O/A torch without burning carbon out of the sharp edges and underheating the core unless you are very careful, slow, and plan on using a lot of gas, so if he has a good propane forge, anvil, and basic drawing/bending/shaping skills I would think forging is easiest. You don't have to draw the whole taper out both directions with a hammer, that part can be filed and not disturb the "grain" of the metal any if that worries you, not that it should. When thinking of "grain" and "directional strength" of a forging that is to be heat treated, a forged part (such as a drop-forged piece or hammer-drawn spring) is superior to a cast part, but not necessarily superior to a part machined from a bar after the parts are heat treated. I used to argue this point about drop forged parts versus machined parts, both are superior to cast parts but not one better than the other where it simply comes down to the cheapest, fastest, and best production methods. Hand-wrought iron is a different story on account of the slag layers.

The challenge with machining a vee spring lies with fixturing and tracing a curve. To deal with this on a manual mill, I mill or simply saw a straight vee into something like a 1" wide piece of annealed 1095, meeting at a small drilled hole, reduce thickness only as required along the spring edge profile while leaving material for the fulcrum peg, mill the features of both ends of the legs, then turn the piece edgewise in the mill vise and mill down the "outside" of the legs to the desired thickness and taper, then complete the features of the ends. After that the outside of the bend is milled off, peg filed round, width taper is tuned with a file, spring is polished all over, heated and curved as required, reheated and quenched as required, polished again, then drawn in a lead bath.

It's easier, faster, and cheaper to file and beat one out of a piece of rolled spring stock. But if you're cheap like me and have lots of automotive leaf springs stacked up out back, milling works too.

If you want a good model for a machined spring, take the mainspring out of one of Jim Kibler's round-faced locks and trace it. The relaxed shape is dead on perfect for its working range and temper.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top