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Anyone else's gun like a very tight load ?

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ZDC

ZDC

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I'll start off by saying I have an old CVA hawken, and there isn't really a problem, I'm just curious as to what the "norm" is (as this is my first of hopefully someday many muzzleloaders)

What I've come to find is the bore seems pretty tight, moreso than other 50cals (from what I can tell ). The best load I've found is .495 ball and .02 inch pillow ticking patch , which it shoots amazing, so im happy with it. But it's hard to load even with a clean bore, and impossible after a single shot ( I physically can't load it without running a patch through the barrel)

Ive came up with a system , of loading powder first , loading a dry cleaning patch/over powder patch ( made from old cotton shirts ) , then running another cleaning spit patch to clean the bore , and then I can load the PRB. Doing this shoots amazing, and the guns a real track driver
( If I run the cleaning patch down the barrel it tends to push fowling into the touch hole and it makes a huge mess after ~15 shots ... But loading powder first then cleaning the rest of the barrel I can shoot all day with no issues

I've tried .490 balls and thinner patches , and tried working up loads, and can load 2 shots without having to run a spit patch , but the groupings open up a lot. But once I start shooting tighter and tighter loads and cleaning the barrel each shot the groups shrink fast.


I guess there isn't really anything wrong, and I'm shooting tight accurate groups, but I'm more so cerious as to if this is the norm with other guns , or even older CVA barrels ?

I keep hearing other people say they shoot 10+ shots before having to clean the bore, is that the norm?
 
I have done it both ways. Using excessive force to load is not enjoyable for me and has to be bad for the barrel. I tend to stick to muskets and paper wrapped cartridges these days.
 
My most accurate loads in any of my ml guns have been the very tight ones. Thick tight patches lubed the "Dutch System" way were the best. I needed a hard rubber mallet to start them. Bore had to be wiped between shots ALWAYS. I don't load that way anymore just because it's elaborate and tedious and especially so if away from the bench in the field.

So, what you do is working so it's up to you whether to change your methods.

If you go to a patch of .018 or even .015 and use a wet lube you will be able to shoot without wiping and loading will be easier. You will have to try it to see if accuracy is acceptable.
 
In @ZDC's case, wiping between shots is the norm. There is a "norm" for every gun and trying to make one's gun load like someone else will often become quite frustrating. What's needed is a wiping jag, one that is smaller in diameter than a cleaning jag. The wiping jag with a damp patch will pass over the fouling but will tightly bunch up to pull fouling out of the grooves allowing the damp patched round ball to be seated while not packing fouling into the breech and flash channel to the drum. Of course, ZDC has found a method that works for his rifle and that may be the norm for his rifle. Black powder makes fouling, and we need to determine the procedure that provides the performance we seek.
 
ZDC said:
I'll start off by saying I have an old CVA hawken, and there isn't really a problem, I'm just curious as to what the "norm" is (as this is my first of hopefully someday many muzzleloaders)

What I've come to find is the bore seems pretty tight, moreso than other 50cals (from what I can tell ). The best load I've found is .495 ball and .02 inch pillow ticking patch , which it shoots amazing, so im happy with it. But it's hard to load even with a clean bore, and impossible after a single shot ( I physically can't load it without running a patch through the barrel)

Ive came up with a system , of loading powder first , loading a dry cleaning patch/over powder patch ( made from old cotton shirts ) , then running another cleaning spit patch to clean the bore , and then I can load the PRB. Doing this shoots amazing, and the guns a real track driver
( If I run the cleaning patch down the barrel it tends to push fowling into the touch hole and it makes a huge mess after ~15 shots ... But loading powder first then cleaning the rest of the barrel I can shoot all day with no issues

I've tried .490 balls and thinner patches , and tried working up loads, and can load 2 shots without having to run a spit patch , but the groupings open up a lot. But once I start shooting tighter and tighter loads and cleaning the barrel each shot the groups shrink fast.


I guess there isn't really anything wrong, and I'm shooting tight accurate groups, but I'm more so cerious as to if this is the norm with other guns , or even older CVA barrels ?

I keep hearing other people say they shoot 10+ shots before having to clean the bore, is that the norm?
Click to expand...
Tight patched ball, tight groups! It is explained in loads of writings on M.L. rifles.
 
when the powder explodes gas seals the bore. a super tight load is not necessary to get good accuracy. wiping between shots is even less necessary. 4 parts dish soap 6 parts water, soak the patch and load, and you can shoot all week long and never ever "swab" between anything but your toes when you take a bath on Saturday night,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
I'll likely say this a few more times over the coming weeks... but ^^^^^^^ what olskool said.

I took my .36 Seneca out earlier this week and fired 20 rounds using a 25/75 Dawn-to-water mix. I squeezed out each patch then laid them on a sheet of paper and folded that over to press the patches. This is the first time I ever tried this and I'm a fool for not doing it sooner! The last ball loaded as easily as the first and gave me a solid group at 25 yards. I was only using 25 grains of 3F but in that .36 I was previously wasting time and patches swabbing wet/dry/dry between shots.
 
If its working for you, great. I shoot a .495 ball and pillow ticking. Never really measured it. You don't mention what powder or lube you are using, that may explain the inability to load a second shot without swabbing.
A hint on swabbing between shots. Your patch should be damp, not wet. Your jag and patch combo should not be tight in the bore. If it is, you will push fowling down. It should be a little loose. Push your damp patch down the bore and let it sit a few seconds allowing time for the fouling to soften. Then pull the patch out. It will expand to the bore as it is being removed, bringing the fowling along with it. Do not use a pumping action when swabbing between shots. That too will push fowling into the fire channel.
After years of using different lubes, I have gone to using water with a little dawn detergent in it. It does not take much, just a few drops till it has a slick feeling. Some guys tout a 50/50 mix or other high ratios. Not at all necessary.
 
My observations with my muzzleloaders is that in general it's true that the tighter the fit the better it shoots, so it's a balancing act between how well you want it to shoot and how easy you want it to be able to load. Frankly, if I have to take a mallet to get it started every load that's a bit too tight for me.
 
I have some guns that like tight patches and some that don't. I think it depends on the rifling, my Renegade and CVA .54s like tight patches with their sallow rifling. My Pedersoil Frontier .36 likes a looser patch and a smaller ball and a little deeper rifling than my Traditions .36 Frontier. The Traditions also shoots Maxis really well too.
 
ZDC said:
I'll start off by saying I have an old CVA hawken, and there isn't really a problem, I'm just curious as to what the "norm" is (as this is my first of hopefully someday many muzzleloaders)

What I've come to find is the bore seems pretty tight, moreso than other 50cals (from what I can tell ). The best load I've found is .495 ball and .02 inch pillow ticking patch , which it shoots amazing, so im happy with it. But it's hard to load even with a clean bore, and impossible after a single shot ( I physically can't load it without running a patch through the barrel)

Ive came up with a system , of loading powder first , loading a dry cleaning patch/over powder patch ( made from old cotton shirts ) , then running another cleaning spit patch to clean the bore , and then I can load the PRB. Doing this shoots amazing, and the guns a real track driver
( If I run the cleaning patch down the barrel it tends to push fowling into the touch hole and it makes a huge mess after ~15 shots ... But loading powder first then cleaning the rest of the barrel I can shoot all day with no issues

I've tried .490 balls and thinner patches , and tried working up loads, and can load 2 shots without having to run a spit patch , but the groupings open up a lot. But once I start shooting tighter and tighter loads and cleaning the barrel each shot the groups shrink fast.


I guess there isn't really anything wrong, and I'm shooting tight accurate groups, but I'm more so cerious as to if this is the norm with other guns , or even older CVA barrels ?

I keep hearing other people say they shoot 10+ shots before having to clean the bore, is that the norm?
Click to expand...
I've always found Lymans advise that a patch should leave it's weave imprint in the ball both in land and groove for a proper seal. I also read recovered patches to see if they are holding up after being shot with no holes or excessive fraying. I have settled on windshield wash as my go to patch lube with each patch being squeezed out at loading. The windshield wash works in hot or cold weather and contains liquid soap, alcohol and water, all good ingredients for patch lube.
 
M. De Land said:
I've always found Lymans advise that a patch should leave it's weave imprint in the ball both in land and groove for a proper seal. I also read recovered patches to see if they are holding up after being shot with no holes or excessive fraying. I have settled on windshield wash as my go to patch lube with each patch being squeezed out at loading. The windshield wash works in hot or cold weather and contains liquid soap, alcohol and water, all good ingredients for patch lube.
Click to expand...
Also makes an excellent cleaning solution. 😁
 
All custom & original pistols & rifles I've shot in competition only required a swipe with a damp patch after 3-5 matches if the proper PRB combo was used with lubed patches.
Measuring the bore size rifling depth with calipers will also help you formulate a PRB combo that loads without short-starter damage to palm of your hand.
 
ZDC said:
I'll start off by saying I have an old CVA hawken, and there isn't really a problem, I'm just curious as to what the "norm" is (as this is my first of hopefully someday many muzzleloaders)

What I've come to find is the bore seems pretty tight, moreso than other 50cals (from what I can tell ). The best load I've found is .495 ball and .02 inch pillow ticking patch , which it shoots amazing, so im happy with it. But it's hard to load even with a clean bore, and impossible after a single shot ( I physically can't load it without running a patch through the barrel)

Ive came up with a system , of loading powder first , loading a dry cleaning patch/over powder patch ( made from old cotton shirts ) , then running another cleaning spit patch to clean the bore , and then I can load the PRB. Doing this shoots amazing, and the guns a real track driver
( If I run the cleaning patch down the barrel it tends to push fowling into the touch hole and it makes a huge mess after ~15 shots ... But loading powder first then cleaning the rest of the barrel I can shoot all day with no issues

I've tried .490 balls and thinner patches , and tried working up loads, and can load 2 shots without having to run a spit patch , but the groupings open up a lot. But once I start shooting tighter and tighter loads and cleaning the barrel each shot the groups shrink fast.


I guess there isn't really anything wrong, and I'm shooting tight accurate groups, but I'm more so cerious as to if this is the norm with other guns , or even older CVA barrels ?

I keep hearing other people say they shoot 10+ shots before having to clean the bore, is that the norm?
Click to expand...
How many shots between cleanings depends on much on surrounding conditions and loads.
I live in the Ozarks, moved here from the west. In New Mexico where I grew up I could easily get ten shots. Very low humidity there.
Suddenly in the humid Ozarks three of four shots was too many. Lube makes a difference. Spit or other liquid lube works better in even humid, but hard line like mink oil or lard is more dependent on weather.
I get my best shooting if I swab with a damp patch between shots.
Many can go ten shots without difficulty. Just something you have to experiment with yourself
And that’s the fun of the sport
 
I have a .40 flintlock made by a very good friend who was a member of our club and passed away years ago. It has a Rayl barrel and shoots best with a .400 ball and .018 pillow ticking.
 
wiscoaster said:
My observations with my muzzleloaders is that in general it's true that the tighter the fit the better it shoots, so it's a balancing act between how well you want it to shoot and how easy you want it to be able to load. Frankly, if I have to take a mallet to get it started every load that's a bit too tight for me.
Click to expand...
I have never had a M.L. rifle that wasn't more accurate when using a tight patched ball. I don't mean so tight that you have to hammer it down the barrel but hard enough that there is a lot of resistance.
 
tenngun said:
How many shots between cleanings depends on much on surrounding conditions and loads.
I live in the Ozarks, moved here from the west. In New Mexico where I grew up I could easily get ten shots. Very low humidity there.
Suddenly in the humid Ozarks three of four shots was too many. Lube makes a difference. Spit or other liquid lube works better in even humid, but hard line like mink oil or lard is more dependent on weather.
I get my best shooting if I swab with a damp patch between shots.
Many can go ten shots without difficulty. Just something you have to experiment with yourself
And that’s the fun of the sport
Click to expand...

Tenngun I think your correct, a liquid based patch lube worked best for me when I was traveling & competing with muzzleloaders in different climates.
Several year back I also relocated from New Mexico & did a 3 year stint in hills of Arkansas shooting at Berryville & local shoots & experienced no changes in my shooting & loading
Depending on the gun I'm shooting I typically shoot 3-5 matches before running a damp patch down the bore.

I'm now 82 & my favorite patch lube since my 20s was given to me by an old timer at Friendship & continues as my favorite even though I operated muzzleloading retail stores through many years & tried numerous other patch lube options.

If interested in trying, the formula consists of an equal one-third mixture of rubbing alcohol, Murphy's oil soap & hydrogen peroxide.
I pack a small plastic flip-top bottle in my shooting bag & also works well as hand cleaner & to wipe down the frizzen, lock & hands at the range after shooting numerous matches.
 
Relic shooter said:
Tenngun I think your correct, a liquid based patch lube worked best for me when I was traveling & competing with muzzleloaders in different climates.
Several year back I also relocated from New Mexico & did a 3 year stint in hills of Arkansas shooting at Berryville & local shoots & experienced no changes in my shooting & loading
Depending on the gun I'm shooting I typically shoot 3-5 matches before running a damp patch down the bore.

I'm now 82 & my favorite patch lube since my 20s was given to me by an old timer at Friendship & continues as my favorite even though I operated muzzleloading retail stores through many years & tried numerous other patch lube options.

If interested in trying, the formula consists of an equal one-third mixture of rubbing alcohol, Murphy's oil soap & hydrogen peroxide.
I pack a small plastic flip-top bottle in my shooting bag & also works well as hand cleaner & to wipe down the frizzen, lock & hands at the range after shooting numerous matches.
Click to expand...
I find it strange as particular as I am that I never thought of climate being the cause of having to wipe after each shot when I wanted it easier to load? It became a habit and always performed flawless? I could get three shots of relatively easy but wipeing after each shot made it a lot easier. Accuracy has always been great using eighty grains of powder and a prelubed wonder patch and a .530 ball in .54 cal rifles!
 
I never swab or clean until I am done shooting. If you have to swab you aren't using enough or a good enough lube. I use TOTW mink oil because it works in hot summer to cold winter. I also use tight woven cotton patches, I get more uniform thickness than from pillow ticking. If I was just target shooting I would just use a wet lube but I hunt and have left my guns loaded for over a month of hunting season. When target shooting I shoot 30 rounds in five shot groups and never swab or clean.
 

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