The OLDEST in my BP collection …

How about an 8-shot Chinese ‘hand cannon’ or hand gonne from the 15th century Ming Dynasty.

No, I’ve NOT shot this one. Each chamber was fired individually.

Was it made that way to be disguised as something else?

I'd like to see something pictured with this so I can get an idea of the scale.
How did it work? It looks to me like all eight of those chambers/barrels terminate together at the back, and so one initial charge there would set off all eight barrels at once. Is that correct? But then that open end would have to be closed off somehow. Or is there a touch hole on each chamber that can't be seen in the photos?
Are you sure it isn't just the spout for a water fountain? LOL

You're gonna have to be in the front ranks at reenactments.

The large socket and goes on a tiller, otherwise a staff or a long pike. I bet it was real heavy to wield in use. Each chamber is fired individually, many times by a second person so that the first person could hold and aim, while the second person would ignite it.

I have to believe that this was predominantly a defensive weapon, think like troops storming a fortification or palace and inside you can’t really wield a bow & arrow and you’re trying to rush down a hallway. A 2-person team at the end of the hallway could really stop an attack, never mind the“shock & awe affect” if they had never faced firearms in battle.

When arms like this were fielded in Europe, I think the most I’ve seen offhand has been 4 barrels, but most were individual barrels so that they could be wielded and aimed better. And after being shot, you still had a defensive pike/staff to use, with some type of steel pommel or point on the other end.

Recall that even in the age of musketeers, typically there would be a few pikemen around them to protect those ranks, especially from calvary charges.

Flint62Smoothie said:

The large socket and goes on a tiller, otherwise a staff or a long pike. I bet it was real heavy to wield in use. Each chamber is fired individually, many times by a second person so that the first person could hold and aim, while the second person would ignite it.

I have to believe that this was predominantly a defensive weapon, think like troops storming a fortification or palace and inside you can’t really wield a bow & arrow and you’re trying to rush down a hallway. A 2-person team at the end of the hallway could really stop an attack, never mind the“shock & awe affect” if they had never faced firearms in battle.

When arms like this were fielded in Europe, I think the most I’ve seen offhand has been 4 barrels, but most were individual barrels so that they could be wielded and aimed better. And after being shot, you still had a defensive pike/staff to use, with some type of steel pommel or point on the other end.

Recall that even in the age of musketeers, typically there would be a few pikemen around them to protect those ranks, especially from calvary charges.

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If it’s viewed as a replacement for a crossbow, it has a higher rate of fire and less unwieldy than the heaviest crossbows.

One book on Renaissance warfare I’ve read claims that siege warfare was the main force for innovating hand held fire arms, so that sounds right.

If you got a chain fire it would just be more effective.

Congrats! These guys fired one in a video:

cyten said:

Congrats! These guys fired one in a video:

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Yeah but, Percussion caps on something claiming to be 15th century?

Bill: “Oh look at him smacking an original 15th century gun down onto a table!”
Joe: “What could be wrong with that?”

Billy-by-gosh said:

Yeah but, Percussion caps on something claiming to be 15th century?

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i think they made some wild assumptions on the use of caps, but hey, it worked!

One wonders if in practice they inserted three fuses of varying lengths and lit them all at once before "aiming" before each chamber went off.

Cool weapon. I didn’t get the cap thing either.

BillinOregon said:

One wonders if in practice they inserted three fuses of varying lengths and lit them all at once before "aiming" before each chamber went off.

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In Europe, they did not use fuses. The fuses are a modern facsimile to the slow burn of serpentine powder in the touch hole

And I thought some meddling Clergyman came up with percussion. we learn things every day ? There haveing fun that's for sure .
Cheers Rudyard

Flint: Maybe "blast" the loose red rust off ?

I don't think it's a hand cannon at all; some other use, perhaps? No way are you getting the charges to loop down a curved "barrel"; if anything, it's a 'one off' that never 'caught on'. I saw this someplace else, I seem to recall.

springfield art said:

No way are you getting the charges to loop down a curved "barrel";

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Well simple, that's because ... they don't at all. Don't let the curved design fool you, that is more of a strucural component than astestics, done so to join the large chambered 'mug' (containing multiple barrrels) to the one larger socket that's placed on a staff or remnant pike.

By design it is an 8-chamber/barrel INDIVIDUALLY fired weapon for close-quarters battle only, where each barrel had their own touch hole. These were shot by a 2-man Team.

FWIW the Europeans never fielded such arms of that many barrels due to the weight and practicality of 'aiming' at a longer distance. Aimed fire and the desire to reduce the manpower down to 1-person - just the shooter - led to the development of the 'S'-shaped serpentine.

Although the earliest documented hand gonne in use as a true firearm traces back to 1288, the serpentine wasn't added to Hakenbusche or 'Hack Butt' arquebuses until 1411, as the 1st recorded date. Prior to the adoption of the serpentine, European troops did field single-shot hand gonnes as shot by indiviuals as well as in 2-man Teams. It was significantly easier to train the conscripted peasants to hold and fire a hand gonne that is was to train them on crossbows or the longbow (by a LONG shot, no pun intended, as that took years!).

springfield art said:

... if anything, it's a 'one off' that never 'caught on' ...

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Less they made 1,000s ... LOL! Not too many extant examples exist outside of museums or private collections. Sometimes we see 2-shot gonnes added to halberds or battle axes, but those were more so the "one off" examples.

The generous late Michael Tromner posted this at Vikingsword forum: 15th century short wrought iron barrels - why there are so many around

Broadly, what we see is preservation bias. Artworks, royal catalogues and other documentation shows all our speculations are true at the same time. What is preserved are a very few of what were many; that single mounts and multiple mounted barrels of numerous arrangements were in use; that artists might draw from description and not from observation.

The distant past really IS another country.