Info please with cocking effort on Hawken percussion lock

Larry (Omaha) · Oct 7, 2024

I have a nice Hawken style percussion lock that works well, except it is punching the cap lids into the nipple flash hole. What is going on? Well, when I started looking at it, I realized the cocking effort is waaaaay too stout. I will trim the mainspring to lower the cocking effort. My question to the forum: What is a good poundage to shoot for? I can't give you a lock brand as I do not know. It is a leaf spring, not a coil spring.
Thanks in advance
Larry

Are. M. · Oct 8, 2024

When you say trim the spring, where is the metal coming off of? The hook end, the side of the spring, or the flat of the spring?

Davey Boy · Oct 8, 2024

Before you wreck the spring, why not look at the flat inside the hammer and look at the nipple surface to see if it is also flat and the two surfaces are in complete contact?

Larry (Omaha) · Oct 8, 2024

Are. M. said:
When you say trim the spring, where is the metal coming off of? The hook end, the side of the spring, or the flat of the spring?

I am no expert, but in my years of working with locks I have done both. Thinned the thickness and also removed material from the width. Depending on what I have and the intended end result, I may do both the aforementioned or just one. Two issues I consider are: never leave cuts, scratches, or grooves at right angles of the spring length. If grinding never get the spring too hot to hold. Again, not an expert, this is what I do.
Larry
PS I work on the hook end of the spring, but don't touch the hook

Larry (Omaha) · Oct 8, 2024

Davey Boy said:
Before you wreck the spring, why not look at the flat inside the hammer and look at the nipple surface to see if it is also flat and the two surfaces are in complete contact?

Not bragging, but I made the rifle. The lock, barrel and drum were all tuned/timed when it was made. The punched out wafer of cap lid is a solid round that fills the nipple flash hole. The spring tension strenght is way too stout. Even if the lock wasn't punching holes in cap lids, the spring needs to be trimmed.
Thanks for a good point
Larry

ZUG · Oct 8, 2024

Larry (Omaha) said:
Not bragging, but I made the rifle. The lock, barrel and drum were all tuned/timed when it was made. The punched out wafer of cap lid is a solid round that fills the nipple flash hole. The spring tension strenght is way too stout. Even if the lock wasn't punching holes in cap lids, the spring needs to be trimmed.
Thanks for a good point
Larry

You just might need a shorter nipple ---- :dunno:

Larry (Omaha) · Oct 8, 2024

ZUG said:
You just might need a shorter nipple ----

Ok, how does that help the horendous effort to draw the hammer back? Seriously I don't understand how that would reduce the spring tension.
thanks
Larry

deerstalkert · Oct 8, 2024

first off i would recommend acquiring a replacement spring before working on the current one. nothing ruins my day like having a two piece main spring and nothing to replace it with for a month or so while some shipping entity attempts to lose or destroy it .
as to the work you are contemplating, i think you are on the right path, and i think you have the ability. go for it!
but, when you have the spring off work the hammer to see if there is galling or some fumunda causing the extra effort. check the bridle for wear around the axel. that can cause a bind.

Phil Coffins · Oct 8, 2024

Maybe I didn’t understand the question but I measured the amount of pull it takes to cock a couple rifles. Both started at about 11 pounds to half cock then one increased to 15 pounds. The other (a Siler kit) went down to 7 pounds to full cock. Both percussion of coarse.

Larry (Omaha) · Oct 8, 2024

deerstalkert said:
first off i would recommend acquiring a replacement spring before working on the current one. nothing ruins my day like having a two piece main spring and nothing to replace it with for a month or so while some shipping entity attempts to lose or destroy it .
as to the work you are contemplating, i think you are on the right path, and i think you have the ability. go for it!
but, when you have the spring off work the hammer to see if there is galling or some fumunda causing the extra effort. check the bridle for wear around the axel. that can cause a bind.

Thanks, all good points to ponder. If the bridle has wear or is binding, why is there so much downward energy to punch holes in the Remmingon #11 caps on a Hot Shot nipple?
I shoot flint 95% of the time. If this spring gets ruined no big deal for a shipping wait, cuz it would most likely be hanging on the wall anyway.
Larry

Larry (Omaha) · Oct 8, 2024

Phil Coffins said:
Maybe I didn’t understand the question but I measured the amount of pull it takes to cock a couple rifles. Both started at about 11 pounds to half cock then one increased to 15 pounds. The other (a Siler kit) went down to 7 pounds to full cock. Both percussion of coarse.

You did and thanks.
Larry

deerstalkert · Oct 8, 2024

like you Larry I shoot flintlock 99% of the time and only build flintlocks. but having gone through several dozen TC's cap guns and a like amount of Investarms of many flavors, I have some knowledge of them, unless i have forgotten that info. doing alot of that these days.
I would suggest trying some other caps to see if it is something inherent to the Rem caps.
if the bridle/axel is worn oblong the forces may be greater going back or ahead.
let us know please how you cure this. good hands on knowledge is worth having. if I could remember it!

Larry (Omaha) · Oct 8, 2024

deerstalkert said:
like you Larry I shoot flintlock 99% of the time and only build flintlocks. but having gone through several dozen TC's cap guns and a like amount of Investarms of many flavors, I have some knowledge of them, unless i have forgotten that info. doing alot of that these days.
I would suggest trying some other caps to see if it is something inherent to the Rem caps.
if the bridle/axel is worn oblong the forces may be greater going back or ahead.
let us know please how you cure this. good hands on knowledge is worth having. if I could remember it!

Right you are on the caps. The gun was made in the 80s. Can't be more than 300 to 400 rounds through it, so worn parts are non issue. When I shot it in the 80s, I used CCI caps.
Larry

ZUG · Oct 9, 2024

Larry (Omaha) said:
Ok, how does that help the horendous effort to draw the hammer back? Seriously I don't understand how that would reduce the spring tension.
thanks
Larry

It doesn't do anything about the spring force but it might help with punching out the center of the percussion cap and clogging up the nipple hole.

Rebel bull · Oct 9, 2024

I would say that it is a function of the lock/inlet check the lock out of the gun

45man · Oct 9, 2024

Some caps will do that and I get it too. I just pick it out.

Larry (Omaha) · Oct 9, 2024

Rebel bull said:
I would say that it is a function of the lock/inlet check the lock out of the gun

Not trying to be a smart as_ but come on, really, how can a lock have too much downward hammer energy because of lock wood interference?
Larry
I am running over 12 pounds of hammer cocking effort, and punching holes out of the cap lid at hammer fall. Poundage is measured at the hammer thumb grip.

Phil Coffins · Oct 9, 2024

The rifle that I measured for you that has 15 pounds to full cock doesn’t punch holes in the caps, perhaps your nipple has a narrow edge where the cap seats. My preferred cap is Remington #11 but often CCIs are used with no difference.

Eric Krewson · Oct 10, 2024

Never thought much about hammer pull weight, only trigger pull. Just now I got out my TC Hawken percussion kit gun with only about 25 shots through it and measured the hammer cocking strength, it came out to 11 pounds 13 oz. Next, I tested my most recent build which is a flintlock with a Deluxe Chambers Siler lock, the cocking weight was 10 pounds, 8 oz.

I never have had a percussion lock hammer cut a cap at the above cocking poundage, which appears to be a standard ball park figure for all of my locks.

I have one of these fancy trigger pull digital scales to check things with.

45man · Oct 10, 2024

Sorry, I did not read right. I see the cap metal is being punched, what I get is the covering over the priming compound.. I would change the nipple.

Info please with cocking effort on Hawken percussion lock

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