What's wrong with my layout?

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WonkyEye

.50 T/C Hawken
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Why do I have so much wood below the lock?

This is a practice piece of pine that I will inlet and rough carve as practice before I get into the fancy maple.

From top to bottom:
- .50 B weight barrel , 1" thick at the breech
- 3/16" web (a little thick I know but I wanted to leave a little leeway for the lock bolts for my first build)
- Chambers Dale Johnson lock, I disassembled it to layout exactly where the flash hole relative to the pan, and front lock bolt should go. That determined where the tail wound up.
- 3/8" ramrod hole
- Davis #4 triggers

I have what looks like a ton of wood under the lock to me? What can I move and how?
 

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If this is your first build I strongly recommend that you get all your parts together and do a full scale drawing of how they all fit together. A piece of meat wrapping paper works great for this. The barrel is what determines how all the other parts fit together. It determines where the touch hole or the nipple is located which determines the position of the lock which determines where the trigger goes which determines where the butt plate goes and so on. Once the lock is located you can locate the trigger plate which will give you the depth of the stock. Of course the ramrod hole and barrel lugs factor into this as well. A full scale drawing will make all of this a lot more obvious to you and eliminate some bad mistakes. Plus it's kind of fun to do.
 
Those look like RE Davis triggers. The trigger blades come way taller than you'll need for most any rifle. I have a set on my desk and they're almost 5/8" from the base of the plate to the top of the trigger blade. The original set triggers I've handled are closer to 3/8" to 5/16" tall under the sear. Not sure if that's the height you need to subtract from your wrist to get where you want to be, but it should get you moving in the right direction at least. I've never held a Dale Johnson in my hands so I could be way off with the following assessment, but the curvature of the lock plate towards the wrist looks pretty extreme to me.
 
The tail of your lock is angled down too low. Ideally it should be centered on the wrist. This is making the wrist too tall which is why you have too much wood below the lock. Correct that line and your triggers will move up.

As Crisco said make a full layout on large paper. If the DJ lock doesn't match the angle of the wrist you want you might need to go with a different lock.

Here's one of my builds with a DJ lock and Davis #4 triggers.
1000006446.jpg

1000006447.jpg
 
brushyspoons said:
Those look like RE Davis triggers. The trigger blades come way taller than you'll need for most any rifle. I have a set on my desk and they're almost 5/8" from the base of the plate to the top of the trigger blade. The original set triggers I've handled are closer to 3/8" to 5/16" tall under the sear. Not sure if that's the height you need to subtract from your wrist to get where you want to be, but it should get you moving in the right direction at least. I've never held a Dale Johnson in my hands so I could be way off with the following assessment, but the curvature of the lock plate towards the wrist looks pretty extreme to me.
Click to expand...
Yes, it is Davis triggers and they are very high like you said. I knew I had to grind them, and accounted for about 1/16" removed but there is still a ton of meat, I could probably remove another 1/4". Do I need to be worried about removing too much mass from the rear trigger and having it bounce off the sear bar instead of tripping it?

Regarding the tail being too low, can I taper the web a bit thicker near the lock so I can drop the front lock bolt a bit, which would raise the tail?

Would it be wrong to raise the touch hole a tiny bit, like 1/32" instead of putting it right in the middle of the barrel flat? Assuming the front lock bolt stays in the same place , the pan would have to move up to meet the new touch hole location. That would move the rear of the lock up, which would also help with the overall thickness..
 
Hatchet-Jack said:
The tail of your lock is angled down too low. Ideally it should be centered on the wrist. This is making the wrist too tall which is why you have too much wood below the lock. Correct that line and your triggers will move up.

As Crisco said make a full layout on large paper. If the DJ lock doesn't match the angle of the wrist you want you might need to go with a different lock.

Here's one of my builds with a DJ lock and Davis #4 triggers.
View attachment 363543
View attachment 363545
Click to expand...
Thanks, that's a huge help, especially with the same components
 
Probably not describing this properly but going to try. In your diagram you show a straight line across the pan from the front to in back of the pan. The top of the lock at the rear of the pan should be higher than the line of the pan. If you get that area up where it should be that will move the rear of the lock up where it should be.
 
ronaldrothb49 said:
Probably not describing this properly but going to try. In your diagram you show a straight line across the pan from the front to in back of the pan. The top of the lock at the rear of the pan should be higher than the line of the pan. If you get that area up where it should be that will move the rear of the lock up where it should be.
Click to expand...
Yes! Thank you! That is it. I took the pan off the plate and didn't notice it before you said that.
 

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Attempt #2, better to my eye, but does it look correct?

Top to bottom,
Barrel 1" at breech
3/16 web at front lock bolt
3/8 ramrod channel
5/32 wood for foregrip under ramrod channel
Wrist is 1 5/8 thick
Distance for tang bolt is exactly 1.75"
Top flat of barrel to bottom of foregrip 1 5/8" at mid point
The triggers will need 3/16" ground off to fit like this.
 

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WonkyEye said:
Attempt #2, better to my eye, but does it look correct?

Top to bottom,
Barrel 1" at breech
3/16 web at front lock bolt
3/8 ramrod channel
5/32 wood for foregrip under ramrod channel
Wrist is 1 5/8 thick
Distance for tang bolt is exactly 1.75"
Top flat of barrel to bottom of foregrip 1 5/8" at mid point
The triggers will need 3/16" ground off to fit like this.
Click to expand...
Much better! Does your drawing extend out to the butt plate? Can you post a picture?
 
I think you have it. Still maybe a little thick in the wrist but not by much. That extra thickness would come off the top between the comb and tang anyway if you felt it needed adjusting.
 
Hatchet-Jack said:
Much better! Does your drawing extend out to the butt plate? Can you post a picture?
Click to expand...
It's a bit difficult to get the whole thing in 1 pic, the pencil isn't visible from too far away. Hopefully you can see what you're looking for in these.

I've got 3.5" drop at the butt. I used the golden mean to determine where the wrist to comb transition should be.

14" LOP ( long I know, one of the reasons I'm doing a rough pine stock first to make sure it really does fit me well)
 

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Do you have a copy of The Gunsmith of Grenville County? by Alexander ... here's a link to TotW ...https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/821/1/book-ggc
a bit pricey, but it more than pays for itself in parts you don't ruin, not to mention extra time in purgatory for the bad language you don't use...
spiral bound, it stays flat to the page you want ... explains a ton of stuff about layout

best of luck with your project :)
 
WonkyEye said:
It's a bit difficult to get the whole thing in 1 pic, the pencil isn't visible from too far away. Hopefully you can see what you're looking for in these.

I've got 3.5" drop at the butt. I used the golden mean to determine where the wrist to comb transition should be.

14" LOP ( long I know, one of the reasons I'm doing a rough pine stock first to make sure it really does fit me well)
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting those. Looking good.
 
MSW said:
Do you have a copy of The Gunsmith of Grenville County? by Alexander ... here's a link to TotW ...https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/821/1/book-ggc
a bit pricey, but it more than pays for itself in parts you don't ruin, not to mention extra time in purgatory for the bad language you don't use...
spiral bound, it stays flat to the page you want ... explains a ton of stuff about layout

best of luck with your project :)
Click to expand...
I do not, I have "The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle" and "Recreating the American Longrifle". Is that book more informational in your opinion?
 

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