$1,000 budget (set on stone): What should I recommend?

[Indy Durtdigger]

Recommendation sought for a "$1,000 budget (set on stone)" flintlock purchase, and 8 out of 10 responses are to save more money and buy an expensive kit, and others are that he must be a loser because he can't or does not want to spend more - classic responses from the folks that regularly post on this forum. Because it's Kibler or nothing, right?

It sounds like there's a whole lot of rationalization going on regarding the purchase of an overpriced kit.

"A range acquaintance wants to transition from percussion sidelocks to flintlocks, and is looking to me to recommend what he should buy because he sees me shooting my Kibler with few, and usually no, misfires."

I do believe in this case he got so many Kibler responses due to the first sentence in the post.

 

[Zapadach]

If he has a thousand bucks, he can sell whatever he is shooting now to make up the difference, and get a Kibler.

Someday maybe soon there will be a very long wait for kiblers, because they make a very fine rifle for a reasonable price. I hope Jim puts out a smoothbore soon, so I can buy one.

 

[waksupi]

"A range acquaintance wants to transition from percussion sidelocks to flintlocks, and is looking to me to recommend what he should buy because he sees me shooting my Kibler with few, and usually no, misfires."

I do believe in this case he got so many Kibler responses due to the first sentence in the post.

Very true, there are other options, some depending on your knowledge of putting together a gun. Chambers are quality, and I'm sure there are others out there I'm not aware of.

 

[MtHoot]

Not quite. $780 for the kit, $300 for the lock, $100 to ship. Adds up to $1,180.

Then on top of that you need wood working tools, materials to finish the stock. Materials to finish the barrel, so that extra on top of the kit plus state taxes you’re going to be in the $1400-1500 range at a minimum, if everything goes smoothly, and thats for a step up kit rifle. As I mentioned before in a post, you can find a quality contemporary build used long rifle in that same range and possibly better quality.

 

[MtHoot]

Someday maybe soon there will be a very long wait for kiblers, because they make a very fine rifle for a reasonable price. I hope Jim puts out a smoothbore soon, so I can buy one.

That is highly doubtful. Jim is at the early stages of basically going to or somewhat leaning towards production rifles. The machinery he has been investing in these past few years are evident of such, and he is extremely careful to protect his machinery from the public eye. The woods runner is a pretty good example of his intention. Most all is cnc machining, the wood and carvings are machined..this is by no means a knock on Jim, he absolutely produces a quality product, and his mission is admirable, to make a kit that anyone with a little skill can assemble, fire and be proud of at a reasonable price. I am just saying that there is a lot of contemporary builders still using old world craftsmanship by hand to produce a quality product and they often can be found used at the same price as one of Jims kits

 

[MtHoot]

When someone has a budget set in stone like that, in my mind they can't rationalize spending more on whatever item. Not necessarily that they can't save a bit more.

There are guns regularly sub 1000 on sale here and the ALR. Kit built guns, antiques and production

Exactly, you have to do your homework

 

[Mike in FL]

I do not often argue, believing it to be useless. But in this case, the OP asked for advice on buying a gun within his budget. That's all he wanted. But very few responses answers his specific query and some even degraded his character. We ought not be like that here. We are to help and support, not try to change his set in stone need. I've not seen that here before in such numbers. My two cents is for all of us to be or learn kindness. I can't imagine how the OP feels about those responses. Another thing: I dearly love Jim's kits, but there are other vendors. I reckon this thread has about run its course, but if it hangs on, let's get off Kibler kits. Don't you think the OP has already priced them and learned that they are too expensive as it relates to his needs?

 

[Boatncamp]

I admit that I have sped read this again today so I may have missed something. What style percussion gun is he shooting currently? Is it a factory gun or a custom build? Which Kibler is he seeing you shooting? How quickly is he hoping to make the transition? Is it because of the shortage of percussion caps? Is he good with a used rifle or does he want new? For an honest recommendation we really should have more information.
Despite what many people claim, there are reasonable production guns available that are reliable. If they weren't reliable, people would stop buying them. Custom guns are nice, but new are much more expensive and outside of his budget. Good used guns do come available here and elsewhere but it is a wait, watch and be ready to pounce. You see it here, a nice piece comes up at a reasonable price and it does not last long. There are several people here that appear to be running a business of selling good used guns. After your friend has decided what he is looking for other then just a flint rifle, you could reach out to some of these folks and see what they may have that has not been listed or have them keep an eye out.
He is obviously looking for some guidance so be sure to talk with him about the many styles, makers etc. I would get him to tell you what he is looking for vs directing him to something that you think he will like. As originally posted it is kind of like having someone ask you what kind of car you would recommend. You tell them what you like, they buy it and it does not meet their expectations or needs and then they blame you.
Guidance vs directing

Woody

 

[Snooterpup]

Whatever you get, be sure it has a top quality lock. Run of the mill production guns don't cut it. That is the heartbeat of the rifle. Don't settle for less.

Absolutely right! The flintlock mechanism itself is the heartbeat of the rifle. You can possible cut corners and save money with a budget lock on a percussion rifle, but never, never on the flintlock rifle. Doing so can sour one on the flintlock experience that many will give up in frustration.
Best locks for flintlocks:
#1 Kibler
#2 (and a very close second) Chambers
My opinion of course, others also chime in.
Snoot

 

[Snooterpup]

I do not often argue, believing it to be useless. But in this case, the OP asked for advice on buying a gun within his budget. That's all he wanted. But very few responses answers his specific query and some even degraded his character. We ought not be like that here. We are to help and support, not try to change his set in stone need. I've not seen that here before in such numbers. My two cents is for all of us to be or learn kindness. I can't imagine how the OP feels about those responses. Another thing: I dearly love Jim's kits, but there are other vendors. I reckon this thread has about run its course, but if it hangs on, let's get off Kibler kits. Don't you think the OP has already priced them and learned that they are too expensive as it relates to his needs?

You are correct. The advice I gave on Kibler and Chambers is not for a kit but to help guide someone looking for a used flintlock. Ask the question “Who manufactured the lock?” I should have been more clear.
As far as quality in a used flintlock:
First, manufacturer of the lock
Second, manufacturer and condition of the barrel.
All else is secondary but also important.

 

[waksupi]

You are correct. The advice I gave on Kibler and Chambers is not for a kit but to help guide someone looking for a used flintlock. Ask the question “Who manufactured the lock?” I should have been more clear.
As far as quality in a used flintlock:

I don't even care who made the barrel anymore. I was barrel inspector for three companies and discovered a bad barrel is very rare from any supplier. The only barrels I ever condemned was because of the wrong alloy being used in the manufacturing process.

 

[Snooterpup]

I don't even care who made the barrel anymore. I was barrel inspector for three companies and discovered a bad barrel is very rare from any supplier. The only barrels I ever condemned was because of the wrong alloy being used in the manufacturing process.

That is a very good point. I believe Rice, Green Mountain and perhaps Coleraine
have the greatest chance of having a traditional flat faced breech plug, which is also a huge plus. A top quality lock coupled with a traditional flat breech plug is the needed recipe for fast, consistent ignition.

 

[Rob M.]

I started with a TC Hawken flintlock and constantly fought with it to be able to get more than 3-4 shots off in a row. Bought parts and made a rifle with a Siler lock and have been shooting it since 1980 and it still fires reliably for many shots before I need to knap the flint. Made shooting so much more enjoyable

Smart ...good going

 

[Rob M.]

That is a very good point. I believe Rice, Green Mountain and perhaps Coleraine
have the greatest chance of having a traditional flat faced breech plug, which is also a huge plus. A top quality lock coupled with a traditional flat breech plug is the needed recipe for fast, consistent ignition.

You hit it on the head bud !! Good quality flintlock , flat faced breeched and T.H. positioned correctly .....

 

[user 34300]

Kibler rifles are a bargain. What you get for the money is amazing. No other manufacturer is even close.

The cheap price point guns and cast lock pantograph stock kits are all second rate.

I am not telling anyone they are having fun wrong by shooting low quality guns. After decades of experience I have opinions. The OP asked about what to buy, so there you go.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

Good luck with that. My Bucket List rifle tops $3K and that was a $1500 set-in-stone-and-guarded-by-Druids. Thinking of dropping another Ukraine-amount on a better ladder-sight.

 

[Flint Striker]

Recommendation sought for a "$1,000 budget (set on stone)" flintlock purchase, and 8 out of 10 responses are to save more money and buy an expensive kit, and others are that he must be a loser because he can't or does not want to spend more - classic responses from the folks that regularly post on this forum. Because it's Kibler or nothing, right?

It sounds like there's a whole lot of rationalization going on regarding the purchase of an overpriced kit.

I might have missed it, but what was your recommendation for a reliable flintlock for no more than $1,000?

I had a couple Lyman Deerstalkers that honestly weren’t bad hunting rifles. They’re short, handy, not much heavier than a 30-30, and accurate enough. I think they are out of production now but I’ve seen them used on TOTW occasionally. Having said that, I only shot about 100 shots from each one I owned. It’s possible that over five or ten years of moderately heavy use you could start breaking parts, have springs fail, wear out a frizzen, etc. I did have to replace the frizzen in a T/C Renegade once. There are parts around for Chambers and Kibler locks, but parts for others don’t seem as available these days. When I buy my next flintlock, I’ll add spare parts to the budget from the start. It’s actually hard to hit a combination of good quality and readily available under $1,000 in today’s market though.

 

[reddogge]

Mike, I don't think anyone is denigrating the OP but they are telling it like it is in real life.

OK, my advice is to keep checking the Rifles For Sale/Wanted above several times/day. Also, check the same thing in AmericanLongRiflesForum. Something will turn up, it always does.

 

[MtHoot]

Save you pennies and get a George Keiffer ,Roy Stroh,Jim Chambers, Williams and more.

You know it Bill! It’s the only way to go.

 

[MtHoot]

I’m in the same place. I have been thinking about making the jump from percussion to flintlock. I also want to avoid the cheap mass produced imports and want something with a decent lock, properly heat treated and tuned, to get started with. I want to enjoy the rifle and not be fighting with the lock to get it for fire.

Bob

Lots of very good advice here