1:20 conical performance

[Speedgoat44]

Is this an acceptable alloy hardness for BP velocities? A local bullet company has some 'Blackpowder Bullets" in this configuration. It seems like it's the softest bullet i'm likely to find from a commercial vendor unless you all know of an outfit that sells softer alloyed bullets for ML - especially in a wide fn configuration. This is a 405 grain 45/70 bullet that I'd hope to push around 1300fps I confess this has applications for a NEF Sidekick too, (not a sidelock) but my hope is to work into a renegade or similar that will handle conicals. Will this bullet expand at these velocities out to 100 yards? Thanks for any input you might have!

 

[SDSmlf]

Is this an acceptable alloy hardness for BP velocities? A local bullet company has some 'Blackpowder Bullets" in this configuration. It seems like it's the softest bullet i'm likely to find from a commercial vendor unless you all know of an outfit that sells softer alloyed bullets for ML - especially in a wide fn configuration. This is a 405 grain 45/70 bullet that I'd hope to push around 1300fps I confess this has applications for a NEF Sidekick too, (not a sidelock) but my hope is to work into a renegade or similar that will handle conicals. Will this bullet expand at these velocities out to 100 yards? Thanks for any input you might have!

First of all, welcome to the forum from Western North Carolina.

Maybe it’s just late, but don’t understand your concern. I don’t have a lot of worries about a 45 caliber bullet expanding. If it penetrates, it will do significant damage whether it expands or not. If you punch a .45” diameter hole through any North American critter you are likely to encounter it will not go far.

 

[Speedgoat44]

Thanks for the reply - I've seen an emphasis on soft lead for muzzleloading projectiles in terms of performance on game. 1:20 seems to be on the outer edge of the BHN recommended by many on here. I'm aware that the hardcast lot has a following as well, with an emphasis on wide metplat and deep straightline penetration. I don't worry a ton on whether game can be dispatched with such a bullet - it's more about optimization of bullet performance as it relates to hardness, bullet design and velocity. I have to disclose that guys like IdahoLewis/Ron are idols to me and i listen to their opinions carefully! They seem to be in the soft lead camp and hunt similar game as I. I really appreciate your reply and thanks for the welcome!

 

[Idaho Ron]

Thanks for the reply - I've seen an emphasis on soft lead for muzzleloading projectiles in terms of performance on game. 1:20 seems to be on the outer edge of the BHN recommended by many on here. I'm aware that the hardcast lot has a following as well, with an emphasis on wide metplat and deep straightline penetration. I don't worry a ton on whether game can be dispatched with such a bullet - it's more about optimization of bullet performance as it relates to hardness, bullet design and velocity. I have to disclose that guys like IdahoLewis/Ron are idols to me and i listen to their opinions carefully! They seem to be in the soft lead camp and hunt similar game as I. I really appreciate your reply and thanks for the welcome!

First off Thank you.
I'm really not in the pure soft lead only camp. I personally harden my bullets with my own mix. The mix I developed at the same time I developed my paper patched Lee 500S&W bullet was a hardness between 6 and 7 bhn.
How I came to that number was I shot pure and started to add hardness to improve groups. When I got to 9 bhn or about 30-1, the bullets were too hard to size with the paper on. The sweet spot for accuracy for me was between 6 and 7.
That bullet and hardness took its first animal in 2009. My 45 hunting bullet is hardened to about 9 bhn. And that bullet is amazing.
Both bullets have killed piles of game, deer, elk, and antelope.
The 20-1 hardness you are talking about is pretty hard. That is what I use in my target rifle.
Personally I think they will mushroom just fine under 100 yards. They will definitely plow deep. Over 100 yards the harder lead will not expand like it does st closer range and faster speed.
The bigger issue is will they shoot well in the gun? A .458 bullet is going to be way big in a 45 since most are .451

 

[Speedgoat44]

Thanks for the reply Ron - I live in a state where sabots(!) are allowed, so that bullet would ride in one of those in a .50 The ultimate goal is to get into what you've been doing, but I haven't laid into all of the accessories for doing so yet.
I bought that 500 S&W mould you use in the hopes that I could find someone locally to cast me up some softer bullets like what you use with it but no such luck yet. If I do find somebody, I'll 'iron on' the paper patch like you do and start working with it from there.
That 1:20 405 fn bullet is available about an hour from me in bulk, so I was figuring that was as close as I was going to get to what you've been using, and a sabot would have be the answer as to how to launch it.
Have you ever chronographed your loads with that .500 bullet? I noticed you got awesome expansion on that 250 yard shot on the bull you took a couple of years back. I don't know what the velocity would've been at that range, but the bullet really upset nicely at that range and lower velocity. Have you ever taken elk with it inside 100 yards and if so, how did that bullet behave at higher velocity?
I figured I'd be happy duplicating 45/70 ballistics at around 1200-1300 fps with this 1:20 bullet. I'm not competent much beyond 100 yards with my open-sight setup, so my bullet would likely impact game at 1000-1100 fps.
Thanks for all you and IdahoLewis have done to shed light on best practices for ML hunting - it's been very informative and fun to read!

 

[Idaho Ron]

Thanks for the reply Ron - I live in a state where sabots(!) are allowed, so that bullet would ride in one of those in a .50 The ultimate goal is to get into what you've been doing, but I haven't laid into all of the accessories for doing so yet.
I bought that 500 S&W mould you use in the hopes that I could find someone locally to cast me up some softer bullets like what you use with it but no such luck yet. If I do find somebody, I'll 'iron on' the paper patch like you do and start working with it from there.
That 1:20 405 fn bullet is available about an hour from me in bulk, so I was figuring that was as close as I was going to get to what you've been using, and a sabot would have be the answer as to how to launch it.
Have you ever chronographed your loads with that .500 bullet? I noticed you got awesome expansion on that 250 yard shot on the bull you took a couple of years back. I don't know what the velocity would've been at that range, but the bullet really upset nicely at that range and lower velocity. Have you ever taken elk with it inside 100 yards and if so, how did that bullet behave at higher velocity?
I figured I'd be happy duplicating 45/70 ballistics at around 1200-1300 fps with this 1:20 bullet. I'm not competent much beyond 100 yards with my open-sight setup, so my bullet would likely impact game at 1000-1100 fps.
Thanks for all you and IdahoLewis have done to shed light on best practices for ML hunting - it's been very informative and fun to read!

I have killed a couple under 100 yards. One was a calf that was under 100 yards, I'm thinking around 50. That bullet blew through. The next one was an adult cow. She was shot at around 60 yards. The bullet crushed the shoulder and was found in the flank. This is the story.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/my-paper-patched-bullets-pounds-an-elk.89245/
My 80 gr of pyrodex P is pushing them 1350 ish. That bullet needs to stay in the 1300 to 1350 range. That is the sweet spot.

 

[necchi]

Thanks for any input you might have!

Friend, if you want to learn about conicals,,
You study @Idaho Ron 's posting history.
He's shared enough info here, backed with tech data and experience to fill an encyclopedia.
That's just not my input, it's fact. Just click on his name, then click postings, go back ten years and start reading!
(and dig deep)

 

[Speedgoat44]

Thanks for the info and link to the story Ron. That bullet was only travelling 900 fps +/- 50 when it hit that bull in 2020. I have no idea what the ballistic coefficient is on that 500 WFN but it's probably in the neighborhood of .18 or so. Big chunk of lead hits hard. At 60 your looking at 1100 +/- 25. I guess I'll see how this combo shoots and go from there, but I hope I get some expansion on larger game - on deer I think it won't matter so much. Thanks everyone!