1 Observation, 2 Repeated Questions

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123joe

32 Cal.
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Once again, a newby post what I am certain is a repeated question.

I was told that patch and ball should add up to caliber and that anything more could be dangerous. But in reading replies to feyx0006 question about double patches,(welcome feyx0006 :v ) it is looking to me that I am the only one who is following this "rule of thumb".

1. How far over can you safely go?
2. What are the benefits of going over?


Not related, but I would feel silly making multiple post back to back.

3. Am I the only person who can't shoot consistant groups past 75 yards? It's not my ML load, I cant do it with anything open sight off hand. :redface:

Where to find answers for the first two questions would be sufficient enough answer.
The third question is starting to bug me. I once considered my self as capable as the next guy, now.... I am enferior. :( :shake:

Thanks again,
Joe
(the one who hunts closer than most) :rotf:
 
OkieJoe said:
I was told that patch and ball should add up to caliber and that anything more could be dangerous.
You can dispense with that bit of information as incorrect.
1. How far over can you safely go?
Until you can't start the patch ball combination because it's too big to fit.
Seriously, some competition shooiters use bore size balls AND a patch, having to start them with a mallet...a little tighter than needed for plinking and hunting of course.
2. What are the benefits of going over?
A tighter patch/ball combo usually gives better groups, and less fouling
3. Am I the only person who can't shoot consistant groups past 75 yards? It's not my ML load, I cant do it with anything open sight off hand.
Don't know what you specifically mean by consistent groups but for sure as yardages increase, groups for the average guy can get bigger and more sloppy shooting offhand.
I for one am very consistent shooting off hand at 75yds...consistently inconsistent that is...I cannot shoot off hand as good as I want to.

Takes good shooting form to deliver your best, and takes a lot of practice...plus things like a longer heavier barrel can help due to the longer sighting plane and the weight minimizes muzzle wander.
 
I think Roundball has already given you the best answer you will get. My load for my .45 caliber uses a .451" ball and a .014" linen patch, lubed with saliva. So my .451" ball with .014" patch all around it would measure .479" overall and is a tight fit down a .45 caliber bore. It doesn't take a mallet to start it but does take several swats with the heel of the hand. Once driven past the crown of the muzzle, the ball has been sized to the bore and, lead being non-elastic, it can be rammed on down easily enough.
 
OkieJoe said:
Once again, a newby post what I am certain is a repeated question.

I was told that patch and ball should add up to caliber and that anything more could be dangerous. But in reading replies to feyx0006 question about double patches,(welcome feyx0006 :v ) it is looking to me that I am the only one who is following this "rule of thumb".

1. How far over can you safely go?
2. What are the benefits of going over?


Not related, but I would feel silly making multiple post back to back.

3. Am I the only person who can't shoot consistant groups past 75 yards? It's not my ML load, I cant do it with anything open sight off hand. :redface:

Where to find answers for the first two questions would be sufficient enough answer.
The third question is starting to bug me. I once considered my self as capable as the next guy, now.... I am enferior. :( :shake:

Thanks again,
Joe
(the one who hunts closer than most) :rotf:


Most shooters fight the movement of the front sight across the target. The secret is to make that movement work for you. Instead of trying to do what is impossible, as in holding the barrel perfectly still while shooting off-hand, purposely move the front sight in a lazy figure "8" pattern( the number "8" laid on its side, and then squished!). Since the barrel is going to move, make it move to your timing, and where you want it to go. That gives your brain and the muscles in your arms and hands something positive to do, rather than trying to achieve a balance between muscles groups to give you that dead calm hold. It Can't be done by a live human being off his feet.

When the sight is movin like a pendulum across your aiming point, you can time your trigger squeeze and release, your breathing, and your follow through to make that long shot, AND, you can learn to do this consistently with much practice. Start at 50 yards. Then move back to 75 yards, and then go out to 100 yards. In practice always keep a steady and consistent routine, so that you have a warm up of shooting at the closer ranges before you move to the longest. Once you have the habit formed, you will be able to dispense with the shorter yardage, and just fire a few shots every day at the longer range to keep your skills up.

See my article on Off-hand and Trick shooting:
[url] www.chuckhawks.com/off-hand_shooting.htm[/url]

I think it will help you.
 
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I like, say in my .45 a .440 ball and drill cloth patch(.10or.12) for hunting. A good snug fit. I don"t use a ball starter, I use a short hickory stick. I have some molds that are .05 under bore(.445), but don"t use them much.A few guns I have won"t take these balls unless I have paper thin patch. I think for off hand you might try a walking stick for a rest. I always use a tree if I can. Don"t like to miss. Dilly
 
The only off hand shooting I do is for matches that require it. Everything else I shoot from some kind of rest, even if it's only a tree or fence post. :v
 
Kind of a "rule of thumb" is to use ball and patch thickness that is the bore diameter. Then when you place the patch around the ball you double the patch thickness and get a good seal.

If you can get the patched ball into a muzzleloader without a mallet the powder should safely get it back out. Examine the fired patches to see if you are destroying them in the process. If cut - too thick. If holes are burnt in them - too thin. I chose a patch that allows me to load using only the rammer (choked up to the last few inches for starting).

Offhand is tough. I've been doing it for 40 years and have peaked, I'm afraid, and starting to backslide. Having a clear aiming point, like a black diamond on a white background (you can aim at the lower "V" of the diamond on the tip of your front sight) will make a world of difference.

Here's an old article I posted back in the ancient forum when we had an offhand contest shooting at a 3" x 5" card:

Stumpkiller's School of Offhandedness


Daniel Webster was a fly-fisherman, not a rifle shooter, as his definitions for "offhand" are contradictory. His dictionary lists "without pre-meditation or preparation" as one choice, and "without rest or support" as the other. I maintain that if you don't prepare for an offhand shot, you won't be any good at them when you need it. Shooting from a benchrest only trains your mind and body to be able to shoot well from a benchrest. Only the eyes and trigger hand have any common tasks between a shot from offhand vs. from a bench. Certainly the eyes and trigger hand have critical jobs, but the rest of your body does as well. I hope to make you aware of what needs to come together to be consistent and accurate in your offhand shooting.

As I'm writing this specifically to help you keep three shots on a 3" X 5" card at 50 yards, I'll tell you the first thing you need to do is get that card so you can see it. After drawing the lines through the diagonals with a ball point pen to locate the center, forget about them. If you can see them at 50 yards I hate you. From now on they're just to help in the final scoring. I zero my rifles so that the balls strike 2" high at 50 yards. This gives me a point blank range of about 100 yards on whitetail, but that's not important now. It does mean I have to establish an aiming point 2" below the where the pen lines cross in the center of the card. I use a 3-3/4" diagonal black diamond with a white center (a free download from[url] www.USPALMA.com[/url] - the one called "2 Medium Diamonds") for load development and zeroing in because I find it an easy target to aim at. Unfortunately, when I put this over the card it became very difficult to score, as the aiming face took the hit and the "skid marks" of the ball, leaving the card behind torn and without well defined edges to the holes. What you need is a way to produce contrast behind the card so you can focus on it as a target. Claude presented a solution of affixing the card in the center of a 6" (or larger) circular bull's-eye target (also downloadable free at USPALMA - See Figure 1). This helps increase the contrast and make the card stand out. But this means you can not use the bottom of the card as an aiming point unless you adjust your sights. You can either do your best to estimate how far your sights must intrude into the white of the card for a center shot, or stick a 1" target plaster (or piece of black masking or vinyl tape) at the proper spot on the target based on your sighting targets. Be warned that if you are zeroed at 50 yards, you'll be beck to the problem of having the tape mess up the holes, or even tear the card when being removed. If you hit it, I recommend you leave it as long as the center of the "X" is still visible. If the other two shots tore the "X" out, send it in tape & all, Tiger! You could also use an orange plaster and draw the lines over it.


Figure 1

Cardtarg.jpg



You ran a lube dampened patch down the barrel to prep it and then assembled a load, and are all primed or capped. You step up to the line, or your 50 yard stake. Now what? First you must establish a solid platform to support the gun. The shot begins at your hips. "He's knutz" you're telling yourself. Think on this: when you're standing for an offhand shot, you have to be able to control your body's tendency to sway (it's there, even when you're sober). Being the amazing, bipedal creature that you are, your brain has developed a stream of commands to keep you from falling over. It is sending constant input to your feet, ankles, knees, and back muscles based on visual and inner-ear cues. Without getting into the metaphysical aspects of it, I can tell you that your body, like any car, boat or airplane, has a center-of-gravity. Right in there behind your belly-button somewhere. What you need to do is get your feet and legs well set under that point. The closest flexible joints to that central spot are your hips (in Karate, that famous board breaking punch is actually thrown by starting with a hip swing). The biggest muscles in your body are from the hips up, and down, and in most situations it is best to use the biggest muscles first. We'll assume you are right handed for all examples. Stand with your left side facing the target. Set your feet angled about 45º from each other and the heels about as far apart as your outside shoulder span. Your right foot should be about perpendicular to the target and the toes of your left foot pointing somewhere to the right of the target. The legs, back and neck should be straight, but not rigidly locked. Your head upright and centered right over your navel. I'm assuming you're shooting a moderately loaded medium or small bore rifle, so you won't be needing to bend your left knee and lean forward into the recoil to keep from toppling backwards. Your stance has to be open enough that you can root the butt plate solidly in the pocket between your arm and collar-bone. (A closed stance is when the toes of both feet are in line with the target: º \=O=/ ). A good way to set yourself into position is to stand in the closed stance, and then move your left foot back half a foot. Swivel at the hips a bit to re-center your hips and shoulders over your feet and you're ready to mount the rifle.

Look at the target and bring the rifle up and then pull the butt plate back into the shoulder pocket with your right hand. The left hand supports the fore end and adjusts for aim. The position of your left hand is determined by barrel length, stock geometry and your arm shape. Your elbow should be as close to directly below the rifle as you can get it without tensing your back and upper arm muscles. Right elbow should be held out horizontal to the ground; again without fighting clothing or muscles.

Both eyes open, one eye closed? That is up to you. I use both eyes open for all hunting shots and most target shooting. I found with the taped card described above I did better with one eye closed. I think it is easier for your brain to determine the center of the card, or a circular target, with both eyes open. Focus on the front sight. With your master eye (we'll assume it's your right). If you are left handed with a right master eye, or right handed with a left master eye: sucks to be you. You'll probably have to end up closing the eye on the opposite side of your nose from the gun. There are too many sight variations to describe here, but let's take a common blade front, rectangular notched rear as our example. The target should be aligned so that it appears to rest on the front sight (6:00 hold) or in the center of the target, front sight aligned in the notch so that the top of the front is level with the upper surface of the rear, an equal amount of light showing on either side of the front blade in the groove of the rear notch. I focus on the front sight, and at the final instant I shift my focus to the target. I think this is a "fault" caused by conditioning from hunting and traditional archery/bowhunting. I'm just blazing my full concentration on THE SPOT that I have chosen as my target. But we're not quite ready in this seminar to shoot, yet.

Breath control is perhaps the most mentioned and least understood of the shooting techniques. We've all been told: Take three deep breaths, let out half of the last one and then shoot." What happens then is that your body is agonizing for breath, your sights are oscillating in ever increasing arcs across the target, and you finally yank the trigger before gasping for sweet air. "7:00 in the four ring" says your spotter, loud enough so the whole line hears him.

So what's a better system? Properly done, breath control not only allows you the motionless moment for final sight alignment, but also calms your muscles and can even slow your pulse. All the little internal maintenance activities your body performs even when you'd like a little quiet. Tense muscles not only oscillate as they pull against each other to remain in equilibrium, but the blood coursing through them causes a bounce, which is more easily absorbed in a loose muscle.

Your breathing drill should begin as soon as you uncase your rifle. As you breathe in, imagine a coil spring in your belly, like the mainspring in an old pocket watch, winding tight. As you exhale, imagine that spring relaxing. In a short article like this, I can't begin to explain meditation and breathing techniques in any detail. Ask a vocalist or Karate instructor. The diaphragm is second only to the heart in keeping you alive, and you have a lot more voluntary control over it. Practice taking slow, deep breaths while trying to be conscious of that muscle raising and falling below your lungs. For those that don't know, when that muscle drops it is the vacuum created that draws air into your lungs. Your lungs have no muscles of their own. That's why a diaphragm puncture on a deer will drop it quickly even though the lungs may not be heavily damaged. It can't breathe. You know the feeling if you've ever taken a punch to the solar plexus that caused your diaphragm to spasm. Ideally, your mind and muscles should be as relaxed as possible, so that if you do flinch a bit, it will take an instant for the muscles to contract that much further, hopefully giving the ball a chance to be past the muzzle before it can be effected.

The Okinawans have a phrase for mental preparation, which I'll now misspell for you: "miso no kokora". Literally, this means "consciousness of bee paste", which is nonsense. But if you were an Okinawa school child centuries ago it would bring to mind the smoothing of the wax writing tablet in preparation of the next lesson. What we would describe as "clearing your mind." In Karate the mental illusion of imagining yourself smoothing out a sheet of wax is meant to help you clear your mind and focus on the present. At any moment we are thinking about work, problems at home, did the dog get his before being shut in with the new carpet, a million things. Imagining a tossing sea that gradually subsides to a calm one also works, as does imagining the face of a loved one or pet. But don't try recalling your version of Ol' Yeller's face or you may find the target will get misty and blurred.

In a hunting situation adrenaline will be pumping into your system, giving the body it's fight-or-flight boost to get you up that tree a bit faster when that bad ol' sabertooth tiger is on your heels, or to throw your rock farther and harder than the enemy throws his. With the rifle now doing all the hard work, you need to mentally counteract the hormonal rush and regain composure by clearing out all the clutter that this increase in mental clock-speed brings with it. The famous "pick a spot and focus on it" drilled into bowhunters applies in and to this situation. Another tip: if you are within 75 yards of a deer NEVER make eye contact with it. If you look at their face, chances are the deer will perceive you as a predator. They have some responses hardwired into their systems too. Once you've determined this is a target animal, look away and continue to observe them with peripheral vision, until the moment you put that front sight over it's heart. Keep you mind busy on choosing a shooting lane (if you're in cover) and the path the deer is taking. Whenever possible, make vertical slope and lateral movement corrections for moving game, or game above or below you, by leaning or twisting at the hips and not by twisting your arms or upper torso.

Now see how much easier it's going to be just shooting at a blind and motionless 3" X 5" card?

The final facets are trigger control and follow through. You've got your breathing down, you're calm and focused. The gun is loaded and at your shoulder. Muzzle pointed downrange and the hammer eased back into full-cock. You have you feet placed and your weight is balanced between them. You take a breath and your left arm and shoulder move slightly to position the front sight. While letting out a bit of breath and then halting, you begin to gently squeeze the trigger. Some will tell you "The gun should surprise you when it goes off." Me, I assume every gun will go off if I were to pull the trigger. I think it is better to say that you should squeeze with slow, evenly applied pressure until the gun goes off. And then, and this is important, you should hold your position a full second before lowering the gun or finishing the release of your breath. Follow-through will prevent some fliers caused by jerking your head at the last moment. In a hunting situation, the movement may also give the animal a visual on a predator to run from, instead of just the bafflement of the sudden cloud of smoke and unpleasant sensation of being shot. Often they'll take a couple bounds and then slow to a trot, and even pause to look back, if you have remained motionless. You're doing these steps properly if you have a dud ignition and the gun doesn't "hop" off target when the hammer drops. If you have an assistant, let him prime and then hand you the gun; with the instructions to use a dead cap or leave the pan unprimed randomly at his whim. Back to breathing and trigger control work if the gun recoils without going "boom."

When sighting in, shoot at least three shots before adjusting your sights. You have to establish a group before you can move the center of the group with sight adjustment.

Good shooting

Diamond.jpg




-- Charlie Pearsall
 
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Great info there Stumpkiller!

Only I would add, as a Schuetzen shooter who LOVES offhand shooting, is to make sure your stance is natural and that you are not 'fighting' it. To do this, once you think you are on target, sight in on the target with an unloaded gun. Then close your eyes for a few seconds. Open them and look for the target. If you moved off left or right you need to open or close your stance accordingly.

Also learn to hold the rifle with your bone structure and not muscle, which fatigues.

Harry Pope was one of the premier offhand shooters during the hayday of Schuetzen shooting and he was a little guy, yet he often fielded 12 pound+ rifles ... and would outshoot the big guys ;) !

OkieJoe: The info here, practice, more practice and a consistent follow-through will get you where you want to be. I for one find dry-firing practice extremely beneficial. I use wood flints made of teak or diamond wood (sometimes over-wrapped in leather) for my offhand dry-firing right in the living room. Try it while balancing a penny on the barrel ;) .
 
Excellent advice!

I'll add that the best practice I have found for shooting muzzleloaders offhand doesn't involve your muzzleloader at all. It's especially useful for teaching you and conditioning you about follow through.

Get a good quality NON-magnum air rifle. You can shoot it at home and shoot it lots. You don't want a magnum due to noise and recoil, but also because you want a pellet that takes longer to get out the muzzle after you pull the trigger. With an air rifle in the 600-700 fps range, lack of followthrough will kill your score every time.

I favor the Beeman R-7. It's so accurate that any miss is your fault, not the gun's. Bench sighting mine, I got groups less than 1/4-inch at 25 yards, if that gives you any indication of it's accuracy. For a casual target on my 20 foot indoor "range" in my livingroom, I simply shoot a hole in the paper, then shoot at the hole.

I shoot that thing 20 rounds a night, seven days a week. Can't do the same with any other kind of gun. Shooting a conventional smallbore target will help you keep score, and that's important at first just to help you keep track of your progress.

After the 20 shots, I usually pick up my ML and set the trigger without cocking the hammer, then "dry fire" that 20 times. You will be downright amazed how steady it feels with the extra weight in the muzzle compared to the barrel-light air rifle.

The benefit of doing this night after night in addition to developing the coordination and reflexes discussed above is conditioning. You are going to develop the muscles and stamina you need to be consistent and good. No other way I know to do it than to put a gun to your shoulder and concentrate for long periods of time.
 
Brownbear: That is an an excellent suggestion, and one that more shooters should take to heart. BB guns can be used inside a home or apartment for daily training, and the skills learn all transfer to the big boys. A good shooter is a good shooter, no matter what he shoots.

Some of you may have heard of the Appleseed Shooting program, designed and intended to make America a " Nation of Riflemen again ". The original concept was to get shooters out with Semi-auto rifles in military calibers. But, the organizers found that it was difficult to find adequate long distance shooting ranges they could use to teach the program. They also found that many shooter just could not justify buying 500 rounds of expensive ammo to attend such a course. After much discussion, students are encouraged and allowed to take .22 SA rifles to the classes, and use scopes, if needed for old eyes. Many of the courses are now fired on 25 yard ranges, with .22 rifles only. The ammo is cheap, everyone has a .22 or more, and all the skills needed to shoot position shooting with high powered rifles can be taught using the .22. It probably could be done on an indoor range of 30 feet( 10 yds) using BB guns, too. I am going to suggest that to the local organizer. My club now owns several quality air rifles, that shoot pellets, from the CMP, and maybe we might organize a winter Appleseed program so our members use the air rifles.
 
The R-7 or the R-8 are the perfect target trainers except for one thing. They have real target triggers that are not at all like muzzleloader triggers as far as feel and release. The cheap tool truck guns are harsher when firing. They kick more. Trigger control is much more of an issue when shooting them. After a range session with one of them, even a single trigger factory muzzleloader feels easy to control. 20$ and some time for much better shooting skills is the top bargain in shooting! The sights on the tool truck guns are also a better match for most traditional sights than the target sights on most air guns. My R-8 used to make me miss the sights every time I picked up another gun. Diasy also makes a series of one pump target rifles that are accurate enough to be serious trainers and they have decent triggers. I have a 30 foot range indoors where I regularly execute old phone books and such!
 
We have found that draping an old blanket over a clothes line indoors will stop pellets and save them at the bottom for easy collection. I don't mine using phone books, but they do distort pellets more, and if you have a pellet swage tool, you can actually use your pellets over again if they are not badly deformed. ( I am seriously CHEAP! I blame it on my father and mother, and my upbringing. Dad was the consumate scrounger.)
 
I use Gamo match for most shooting these days and they don't lend themselves to recycling very well because of the sharp lip. I may try that using my 747 and see if they can be re-used. For hunting, I use the .22 Kodiaks or the JSB Exacts.
That is my one remaining modern hunting gun. I chase squirrels with a full sniper rig capable of less than .2 five shot groups at 50 yards on a calm day. Big difference between that rig and the 36 Bobcat.
Course, a man could just skip all this accuracy stuff. He could just carry him a good muzzleloading shotgun all the time and get along just fine too! Getting so it is hard to pick a gun over the 12 guage for just general hunting these days! A good light bird gun is hard to put down!
 
Thanks for all the responses.

I knew there was a reason I kept that pellet gun around.

Joe
 

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