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Guess I'll have to do all my hunting from a prone position now since I won't even hear those subsonic golfballs coming! Next time I head up to Archbald I'll give you a shout. You do likewise. I'll definitely have my good set of earmuffs for those 4-500 grain loads.
Finnwolf
 
I had the opportunity to shoot the 4 bore wall gun that Vern Davis made. We were at Friendship and sot the day before the summer shoot in September.
The barrel is somewhere over 50" long and the rifle weighs in at 32lbs.
We were shooting at targets on the 500 yard line.
The first load was 300 grains of Goex 1F with the patched round ball. It fell short about 75 yards with the rear sight fully elevated.
We upped the charge to 500 grains and with the rear sight fully elevated and a high hold we were able to hit the target. We ran out of balls to shoot.
We all agreed that the proper charge for the 4 bore at 500 yards would be 700 grains of Goex 1F.
Even with the rifle weighing 32lbs recoil was substantial but not unbearable.
It was the most fun I've had without a woman in years. :p
Vern said he made the lock (and that he would never make another one) Mike??? who was the gunsmith at the Ohio Village Gun Shop made the barrel I believe.

Regards, Dave
 
dvlmstr
Do you have any more specifics on the wall gun ? Is it a
flintlock ? .You said the barrel is 50 " long . any idea about the barrel diameter/size across the flats?
Curious , because i have shot mine with just about 500 gr 2f . Don't know what the max charge is . Barrel maker knows of only using up to 400 grs.
My gun has a 30" bbl , 1 3/4 " at breech 1 1/2 " at muzzle . only !!! weighs 16 lbs. We snuck up on 500 gr. load . Recoil really rocks you back . Don't know if i would
even try 600 gr, never mind 700 gr. I was really curious
about the max load. I would like to know what the velocity
was .
thanks Joe
 
I had the opportunity to shoot the 4 bore wall gun that Vern Davis made.

Love it :thumbsup: The service charge is 375 gns, recoil depending very much on how tight the patch is. You have a rear sight? Luxury ::
 
Jim Gefroh in Ft. Collins Colorado makes 4 bore and 8 bore jaeger rifles as well as English style front-stuffers. He is currently a year out on his work (or maybe a bit more since he just got my deposit on an 8-bore jaeger) :) I believe the advised charge on the 8-bore is 10 drams (or about 270 grains). Recoil should be stout but managable. This is, if I am not mistaken, also the load used on the original double bbl breech loader 8 bores as well. I think the 8 is plenty for any game on the planet and, to be frank, the 4 bore is all about the "wow factor". Jim is setting my jaeger up with an additional flip up rear leaf regulated to the heavier conical that is better suited to elephant and rhino. I figure on taking a bison this year in Canada with the round ball and a tuskless cow elephant next year in Zimbabwe using the conicals.

Best,

JohnTheGreek
 
John
How heavy is your gun going to be? My 4-bore weighs 16 lbs . and recoil is not too bad with the 200-250 gr load .
That is with a 1700gr ball . The 8 bore is around 880grs?
HOw much does the conical weigh for an 8-bore ? Seems to me i remember seeing them in the 1200-1400 gr range.
There is no doubt in my mind that an 8-bore conical would
give you a lot more penetration on big game , than the 4-bore , especially if it is near the same weight/velocity as the 4-bore ball. And yes there is a "wow" factor with the 4 bore. Penetration on the 4 is sufficient for the deer i shot with it this year !!!! Maybe try for a bear with it next year .Nothing much bigger than that here in Northeast
Penna .
Joe.
 
Hi Joe,

I am actually trying to decide what the thing should weigh. Jim usually makes his jaegers with 27 inch bbls and I would guess they weigh just a bit less than your 4-bore. I am, however, thinking about having mine made with a 24" tube for the sake of handiness (I know, a "handy 8-bore" sounds like a contradiction in terms). I have a real love/hate relationship with rifle weight as evinced by the fact that I used to own a 15 pound 50 BMG bull-pup. It literally felt like someone punched me in the mouth when I shot it but it damn sure hit what I was pointing at! :shocking:

The conical bullet Jim uses started life as the NEI 1765 grain .820 diameter slug. Jim had NEI redesign this mold (shorter bullet) so you end up with a 1360 grainer. These apparently shoot well in the 1:120 twist he uses. The weight of the round balls, of course, should be 875 grains if they were a true .835 diameter. However, Jim gets good results from the .820 diameter projectile in an .830 diameter bore having .005 deep grooves (plus a .015 ox-yoke patch) so projectile weight is just a bit less.

I think the sectional density of the 8-bore conical really made the difference for me when deciding whether to go with the 8 or the 4. At 1360 grains, that conical is approaching the magic SD of .3 after all at about .289 or so. I think the 4 bore round ball is .227. Still enough for elephants if you are in a pinch though. :redthumb: Comparing round balls to round balls, the 8-bore obviously falls short with a SD of only about .186.

Sounds like you are having a really great time with the big bore of yours. Black Bear would be fun except for the idea of shooting that thing fom within a tree stand. Best keep that safety harness tight! :crackup: Ever felt like going after bigger game on this continent or others? I know a hell of a real deal, fair chase Bison outfitter in Canada if you are interested. :peace:

Best,

John
 
John
You probably don't want to go too light on that gun. I had
picked 16 lbs as the weight i wanted for this gun, based on some numbers for weight of the October Country guns , and also , some of the recoil calculations from a ballistic program. So when i made up the dimensions for the
barrel i picked a size that would end up weighing about
11 lbs. , then i figured in about 5 lbs or so for the stock,and components. It came out real close to that.
The only problem i ran into was with the 30" barrel length . and it put too much of the weight foward .
By cutting the barrel back to about 25" i can take off
about 1 1/2 lbs from the muzzle . Then i might add 2 lbs of weight (lead )into the butt stock ,this will keep the
weight the same ,and put the balance closer to the center of the gun . (this shorter barrel will make it a "handier" 4-bore ???? ) I know that i wouldn't want this gun to be any lighter. Even just shooting the 200 gr 2f/1700 gr ball combo ,after about only a dozen or so shots it starts to wear on you.
Do you think there would be much velocity lost in shortening the
barrel by 4 or 5 inches ?
Thanks Joe.
 
Hi Joe,

I just got an email from Jim in Colorado and, apparently, Holland and Holland published their data using 26 inch tubes on their 8 bores. I would bet serious money that their 4 bores were the same length or darn close. In fact, here is a link to an original 10 bore H&H with a 26" bbl, a Bland 4 bore with a 27" and another Bland 8 bore with a 26" bbl. Now, these are cartidge guns but, since I understand the loads were the same between the front stuffers and the BP breech loaders, I just can't imagine the companies would change the bbl. lengths at all in the transition to brass cartridges.

http://www.drake.net/html/vintage3.html

Nice rifles, eh! :master:

Of course, these were bespoke guns and the customer could likely order whatever they wanted. I would wager, however, that H&H and other high dollar companies encouraged their blue blood customers to keep bbls under 27" for the sake of balance and "handiness" :) . Maybe you could knock that 30" bbl down to 26" or 27" and add only a pound or pound and a half of lead in the stock. This would probably work just as well for balance and you would be guaranteed to not reduce velocity below the level that was originally intended by H&H and others. The laws of physics are the same today as in 1800 after all. :m2c:

Best,

John
 
John
Can't even imagine shooting that 4-bore with the conical!!!! That gun only wieghs 16 lbs . With a load of 14 drams
(380 grains) and a conical that , as near as i can calculate, would weigh somewhere near 2600-3000 grs plus>>
Wow ...
I hope you are planing on a gun somewhere near the 14 lb range ? Like i said my gun with 250 gr and the 1700gr ball
gets your attention, jumping up to 300gr is a noticable increase in recoil . You would be getting close to that with a 270 gr load and that 1360 gr conical . If you are much bigger than me ( i'm only 5'8" / 170 lbs ) it might not be much of a problem .
If you should happen to be talking to Jim anytime soon, would you mind asking him what kind of load he recommends ,
for the 4-bore , or even what he considers the max load would be ( i have a good barrel , made by Ed Rayl ,4150 barrel steel ) Maybe , if i am not imposing , you could also ask about what barrellength he normally uses , and if i should be concerned about velocity loss by cutting mine
back to 25-26 inches.

Thanks Joe.
 
Joe,

I am about 5'10 and 185lbs. Maybe I need to bulk up a bit for the conical load! :D
You are no impostion at all! I sent the link to this thread to Jim today so hopefully he can start to give us all his information first hand.

Best,

John
 
Joe,

Just so you can imagine what that 4 bore conical would be like....Baker described it thus....

"Bang! Went the 'Baby;' round I spun like a weathercock, with blood pouring from my nose, as the recoil had driven the sharp top of the hammer deep into the bridge. My
 
Joe,

I am about 5'10 and 185lbs. Maybe I need to bulk up a bit for the conical load! :D

John,

Leave the weight off. Your body will give with the recoil instead of having your shoulder absorb it.
 
Joe,

Just some bbl. length suggestions and loading data to keep you busy...

Regarding modern 4 bores, the October Country heavy rifle is "30 inches long and it is 1-3/4 inches wide at the breech and tapers to 1-1/2 inches wide at the muzzle". The rifle weighs 18 pounds.

In The Rifle and Hound in Ceylon , Samuel Baker notes that "My battery consists of one four-ounce rifle (a single barrel) weighing twenty-one pounds , one long two-ounce rifle (single barrel) weighing sixteen pounds". Clearly, it seems that Baker was concerned with the ability to burn all his powder and tended toward longer bbls. This can be seen again below.

In, Wild Beasts and their Ways he states, "In 1840 ... I drew a plan for an experimental rifle to burn a charge of powder so large that it appeared preposterous to the professional opinions of the trade...The rifle was made by Gibbs of Bristol. The weight was 21 lbs., length of barrel 36 inches , weight of spherical belted bullet 3 ounces {so about a 5.3 bore} , of conical bullet 4 ounces, charge of powder 16 drams {one ounce or 437.5 grains!} . The twist was one full turn in the length of barrel. The rifling was an exceedingly deep and broad groove (two grooves), which reduced the difficulty of loading to a minimum...It will be observed that the powder charge was one-third the weight of the projectile, and not only a tremendous crushing power, but an extraordinary penetration was obtained, never equalled by any rifle that I have since possessed". Even given this propensity for large powder charges, it does seem like he was willing to balance bullet weight and powder charge a bit when he writes in In the Heart of Africa , "...but as I rushed toward him with a shout, he turned toward the jungle, and I immediately fired a steady shot at the shoulder with the 'Baby.' As usual, the fearful recoil of the rifle, with a half-pound shell and twelve drams of powder... {328.13 grains}" . He notes in this book that he also fired "Baby" with 10 drams of powder. Of course, it is important to note that while "Baby" is often referred to as a 2 bore because of the "half pound shell" reference, the "shell" was a conical so it seems to me that "baby" was almost certainly a 4-bore.

Now, all this provides an interesting contrast to our earlier discussion. Remember that the cartridge guns we were talking about all had curiously shorter barrels. I do wonder if the high dollar makers were willing to sacrifice a bit of performance for a more balanced feel when adding a second bbl in the case of doubles but I can't really imagine them willingly making such a sacrifice on a single bbl gun when moving to cartridges. The only logical conclusion, therefore is that Baker was requesting the extra length in his front stuffers to accomodate his much higher powder charges. 400+ grains was probably not his standard load but he clearly liked the idea of being able to burn all of that powder now and again. I imagine when one makes a habit of following wounded elephant with a front-stuffer, one gets pretty immune to recoil and wants all the punch possible. Interestingly, he recalls in one book having fired that weapon only under 20 times in a number of years and never failing to bag the target when needing to resort to such extreme measures.

Best,

John
 
John ,
Thanks for the info , i sure wish i had access to some of the books you mentioned. I was just on the phone again the other night with Ed Rayl .( the guy who made my barrel)talking about shortening it some . It is 30" . 1 3/4 to 1 1/2 just like the October country , that is where i came up with an idea of approximately how much it should weigh . Mine is about 16 1/2 lbs , about 1` 1/2 lb lighter , some of that weight might be from the barrel , his are not "true"
4-bores , i think they were somewhere in the .965-.985"?? range, dont remember if he said the ball was .940 or .960,
but i do remember it weighed "only " 1400 gr.
I shortened the stock on my gun about an 1" and that made
the muzzle seem lighter . I might just cut the barrel back
about two inches at a time and see how much lighter it feels . I will try 28" then 26" , i doubt i will go any shorter than 25" , (it would mess up the front thimble.)
Since my "normal" hunting load will probably be in the
250 gr range , i don't think that the few inch shorter barrels will make that much difference .
Does JIm make his own barrels? Are they the 1.052" bore?
Maybe someday i will try to call him, and see if he might have a few minutes to talk to me .
Thanks again for the info . Keep in touch .
Joe .
 
Joe,

You are in luck. Baker's books are public domain and available with a lot of other great stuff at...

http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/b

Just scroll down to Samuel Baker and you can download and print all you want!
At the 250 grain load, I can't imagine you noticing any significant velocity loss moving from 30 to 27 or 26 inches. I would bet all of the powder is burned up by then for sure. I mean, if Baker is burning 400+ in 31 inches how is 250-300 not going to be burned up in 27?
I have no idea what the bore diameter is on Jim's 4 bores. I imagine he would do whatever diameter someone wanted. I'm sure he would chat with you. He is a good guy that way.
Hey, out of curiosity, what is the set-up of your four bore. I was thinking about getting one of those underhammer actions out of the northwest in 8 or 4 bore. Is that what you are working with or is your a custom job? Self built? Just curious what action you are using.

Best,

John
 
John .
I built it myself , like i said , got the barrel from
Ed Rayl. It is the 1.052 bore , 1-95 twist . The slowest he
is set up to cut (at the time ) I built a flintlock , so i could use it here i Pennsylvania. in the muzzzleloader season . (flintlock only , and i like it that way ) .
It is built along the lines of an English Sporting Rifle,
half stock , etc. I actually used the plans for an English
rifle and just scaled them up a bit . With the staight stock and cheekpiece of this design , it handles the recoil
quite well, No one who has shot it with the 400 gr load, has complained a bit about getting hit in the face, etc ,from the recoil. They just get shoved backwards a bit .....
The guy up in the northwest , Roger Renner ,Pacific Rifle Co. is the guy that got me started in the big bores.
About 8 years ago i bought a .62 cal forsythe rifled barrel off of him, then about 3-4 years ago , i bought the
.72 cal barrel . Both of those guns i built as flintock
English Rifles . I shoot 200gr 2f/340gr ball out of the .62
and 260gr 2f/505 gr ball out of the .72 The .62 weighs
7 3/4 lbs and the .72 9 1/4 lbs , and yes they both kick quite a bit , The .72 is very near my .460 Wtby in recoil .
I will definately look up BAkers books .
thanks Joe.
If you need a contact phone number for Pacific Rifle , let me know i am quite sure i still have it .
 
Joe
Sorry it took so long to get back, my wife just had major surgery.
As I recall the width at the breech was 2 3/8".
The ball diameter was 1.042
I do remember the weight being 32lbs for the complete rifle.

Regards, Dave
 
Joe
It was a flintlock and we used 1F Goex powder.
We were shooting at 500 yards since there is documentation that wall guns were used for long range work against artillery.

Regards, Dave
 
Bruce Lingenfelter of Blue Grouse Black Powder builds underhammers up to 4 bore. He had one on Auctionarms several weeks ago, but it must have sold. He builds them finished, "in the white", or as kits. His website is:

www.underhammers.com

I'll send him a link to this thread.

Jimbo
 

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