12 Ga. That is choked Problems

[steeltrap]

First let Me say I'M new to smoothbores.I just got a toledo arms 12 ga. drop in barrel for a T/C Renegade. I ordered Over powder, lubed fiber cusion wads, and over shot cards. And took it out yesterday thinking all would be well. WRONG..... I had nothing but problems. And being new to black powder shotguns . I don't know how to fix some of the problems. I found out that the barrel in not Cyl. bore. The bore dia. at muzzle measures .702 and the wads don't go down well at all. I looked at TOTW catalog and see a wonder wad is made to go down thru the choked bore and expand . It says they take the place of over powder and cusion wads. My first question is when they arrive do You only use one wonderwad over powder or two. And if Ya'All don't mind do You clean a smoothbore the same as a rifle. With hot soapy water. My barrel seemed to rust imediatly. And was a bear to clean. Even after I dryed and oiled the bore I ran a clean patch down this morning and it was slightly discolored from rust.Any suggestions other than using regular Outers gun oil. Any help or advice on loading and useing shot in smoothbores would be very much appericiated. After all I went thru Yesterday with My first attempt It's a good thing I gave up drinkin or else I would have woke up with a bad hangover. THANKS ADC Trapper

 

[papellet]

I have a choked TC New Englander and I use two wonder wads over powder and one over shot. Seems to work well for me. The are flexible enough to go through the choke, in fact I load mine thru an extra full turkey choke with no problems.
I clean mine like I do all my muzzys and last step is a thin film of Barricade (Sheath), no rust ever.

 

[roundball]

Remember.....the whole point of taking up a hobby like this is the learning, then the satisfaction of mastering it...the whole thing is a journey...take your time, learn your way along through it.

If you just want to go out and have modern .12ga shotgun performance from the very first shot, you could have just as well taken a Remington 1187 or something and been done with it.

So stay the course...enjoy the hobby...put it in the perspective that it doesn't matter if it takes you all year to learn about that barrel
:thumbsup:

 

[steeltrap]

Roundball ; Actually I very much agree. I bid on that barrel just assumeing it was cyl. bore. And ordered wads for it without knowing. It was a problem to say the least. I had a missfire, which was another new problem with smoothbore. I had a coulpla of other problems Like sticking a jag in the choked barrel. But I will say I L E A R N E D a whole lot that day. Just mostly things " NOT " to do. I'M dedicated to Black Powder and having fun for the mostpart. But must say Yesterday was a little flustrating to say the least. Sorry if I came off wrong. I just hope I whip it before it whips Me. I was wore clear out by the end of the day. That 12 ga. Barrel pretty much completes My T/C Renegade. I got a 32 cal.GM drop in for Squirrel hunting. A GM 50 cal with adj sights for target and deer. A GM 54 with fixed sights for Primative matches. A 56 cal. T/C smoothbore And now the 12 ga. for trap shooting as soon as I get things figgured out. One black powder gun with 5 barrels that does about all I need to do. THANKS for Everybodys help this is the greatest forum for Help and learning about Black powder I'Ve found. ADC Trapper

 

[slowpokebr549]

BP shotguns are only distantly related to modern ones. Throw out any preconceptions from the git go. My 12 has a modified choke and by extensive trial and error I have found some loads it likes.
The old timers were onto something with the concept of equal volume loads. My gun likes 1 1/4 oz of shot to 90 grains. It will pattern well ONLY if I use ONE felt wonderwad over the powder and one over the shot. If I use more wadding it blows a big hole in the pattern. If I use less powder I get a huge spread with weak penetration.Every BP shotgun is an individual and you have to make it happy. Roundball is right, you might as well enjoy the learning process.Oddly enough I have found that my gun shoots much tighter patterns by using larger shot. It will shoot nine .32 balls into a foot circle at 25 yards.Awsome, but what good is that. Sometimes I think that you should light some candles and make a sacrifice to the smoothbore gods.Listen to all the advice you can get and then do your own thing.

 

[slowpokebr549]

I have always had good luck with wonderlube or beezwax and lard as a rust prevenative. I heat my barrels after cleaning in the oven(wife loves that) and swab the bore with lube.But preventing rust and bore coats is a HUGE can of worms to open around here. Everyone has an opinion. :surrender:

 

[roundball]

"...Oddly enough I have found that my gun shoots much tighter patterns by using larger shot..."

Actually that's not uncommon...carrying more energy due to their weight, heavier shot tends to bore straight on ahead further before any deformation and/or the air resistance starts to take it's toll on the shot column...

 

[paulvallandigham]

Instead of the rather expensive felt lubricated wads, try using just Overshot cards( OS cards) for all the wadding. You can use 4 of them over the powder, and they will take up less space than those two felt wads do. You need to poke a hole in eachof the cards with an awl, off center, so that air can go through each of them. Align the four cards so that none of the holes line up. The cards are thin enough to be bent or bowed, to fit through any choke at the muzzle. push them through one at a time, then shove the first down with your rod and jag to turn it square to the bore, before pushing the next one down. If you want to lube the barrel, put a dab of lube on the underside of the 4th card before pushing it into the barrel. That dab will then flare out between the 3rd and 4th cards, and on being fired, the pressure will squeeze the lube out between the cards, and coat the bore. Use two OS cards on top of the shot. With two cards you will have no problem with a DB shotgun with the load moving forward when the first barrel is fired. The holes then allow air into the column of cards as they leave the muzzle, forcing the cards apart, where they will float to the ground quickly, rather than push a hole into the shot column. Remember that as long as that column of shot stays together, it causes a small vaccuum behind the shot, and that " sucks " the wads behind the shot into that vaccuum and into the base of the shot. Its like putting too much top spin(english) on a cue ball in pool, so that the cue hits the targeted ball, bounces back, but then follows through and hits the ball a second time, sending it who knows where. It doesn't take much of a push in midflight for the shot to be scattered to the edges, leaving a " donut hole pattern".

I prefer to use a cleaning patch with Wonderlube on it, to lube the bore in front of the OS cards after seating the load. I want the shot to be lubed as they rub against the barrel when fired, rather than rubbing against dry steel, and leaving a lead streak( I later have to clean using solvents, and a bore brush, and during shooting, spoiling my patterns as the lead builds up) and flats on the pellets. The flats cause the pellets to lose velocity quickly and fall out of the pattern within 15 yards, doing nothing for my pattern, and representing an entire waste of my money. I don't get a lot of shots at birds inside 15 yards.

As to cleaning, and rust, I am using wonderlube and it has worked okay for me for years. However, I have been given a bottle of Ballistol to try, and I intend to use it to see how well it also works. Members here are sold on it. I use soap and water to clean my smoothbores, just like my rifle. Windex, or some of the liquid cleaners with ammonium also work well. I find I have less lead to clean out of my barrel by lubing the barrel after seating the OS cards, than if I put lube behind the shot. The affect on crud build up seems to be the same, but I get more lead if the lube is behind the shot, than if its out in front. Other's experiences may vary. I like the shape and consistency of the patterns I get by lubing the barrel last. It does not have to be another step, however. If I am thinking right, I simply put a lubed cleaning patch on the front of my jag before I run those 2 OS cards down on top of the shot. The cleaning patch lubes the barrel on the same stroke, and I am ready to shoot just a little sooner.

BP shotgun shooting is about taking your time, and enjoying the event. Reloading in the field should be done with dedication and concentration, It should never be rushed. The time involved lets you get your heartrate back down, lets your ears hear the sounds of the fields and woods around you, lets your nose smell the scents from the weeds, and crops, and trees, and gives you eyes a chance to rest a bit while you focus on something close at hand. It should be a relaxing exercise, and not something that causes you additional stress. Once you understand all the stuff that makes your gun go boom the way you want it to, you will learn to relax, and enjoy the sport. It doesn't matter what hunters with modern shotguns like to do. This is a different way of hunting. IMHO, its a much better way. With the small bag limits most hunters struggle with, its a good way to stay in the field longer enjoying the hunt. Nothing wrong with that at all! :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

The only way I found to minimize the hassle of chokes is to tip the wads on edge (both over-powder and over-shot cards), push them through the choke, then aline them with the bore before seating them. Works okay, but it's not as convenient as a true open bore.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I in the past have used Hoppes no 9 when after storage have found some rust in the bore. It seems to pickle it off quite well. Then I will plaster the bore and outside with olive oil and bees wax mix. Sometimes on inspection it looks like its rusting like hell but when wiped it is not as bad as I thought, what I mean is I use to panic but don,t any more. Some times If it takes my fancy I will boil a kettle and give it a hot water session. If your tube is rough it may be blooming in rust easily, perhaps some polishing my help. Perhaps in time it may just get better the more it is used. Perhaps the fine surface rust may aid this graduall improvement of the bore. Don,t panic my freind, M/L smoothies allways test conventional thinking. As Paul says use O/S cards only-just better for most folk.
I was out with mine last weekend and had a frustrating time my self but I know that next time could be the best time ever- thats how it is. In the face of mockery many times I have ended up downing really high birds to much aplause and then the next outing it,s back to the mockery :shake:
Good luck ;your hooked now :blah:

 

[Many Klatch]

Cleaning a smoothbore can be pretty simple. I like to use hot water and Spic and Span. Since I shoot flintlocks I have to plug the touchhole with a toothpick and then pour the hot water mixture into the barrel. After a couple of applications and swabbing between pours, it'll come clean soon enough. One thing you can do with a smoothbore that you can't do with a rifle is use 0000 steel wool as a cleaning wad to make sure that the barrel is clean.

I know everyone has their own favorite oil. I make mine out of 1/2 two stroke motor oil and 1/2 Kerosene. This makes for a real thin penetrating oil that protects the metal. It also burns out clean when you are shooting, which is something I can't say for a lot of the fancy silicone coatings that I have tried to use.

For cleaning while in camp, I like to use Ballistol mixed one part Ballistol to ten parts of water. That cleans amazingly fast and then I oil with my personal oil mix.

Many Klatch

 

[john12865]

My T/C New Englander measures .710 at the bore.
The barrel is marked 12 gauge. A true 12 gauge cylinder bore would be .729.
At first I thought I might have a modified choke which would taper to the bore at .710. I check and found out that T/C only made choked guns with with screw in tubes and if the gun wasn't threaded at the bore then it was a cylinder bore.
So my New Englander is really a 13 gauge cylinder bore.
Your barrel at .702 if choked is an improved modified choke. An improved modified choke may not be such a bad thing and may actually make you resist wrapping your barrel around a tree.
You will still no doubt have to work up some loads because if the first one gives you what you want you had better go buy a lottery ticket as the muzzle loading shotgun Gods have bestowed their blessing on you.
My experience with the cylinder bore :barf: has been quite the challenge :cursing: but I have found some acceptable loads. It's 7:00am Sunday morning here and time to make the tree rats say their prayers. Good luck with your gun.

 

[steeltrap]

Paul; There seems to be much wisdom in Your words. I particulary liked the part about slowing down and enjoying the sights and smells of the surroundings. Yes it is true I became frustrated with My first attempt with the 12 ga barrel. But the Trouth is it was only 1/2 due to problems I encountered with it. The real underlying problem was My Body pooping out while the job at hand was only 1/2 done. Rhumatoid Arthritus has got My stamina level down to about an hour of moderate activity a day. After that I'M shot for the rest of the day. I'M only 54 but My body thinks I'M 75. And worse Yet My mind thinks I'M still 21. I lived My life as a can do kind of a Guy. And now that I cant quite do that anymore I 'M having a hard time adjusting to the new facts of life. I woke up at 4:30 this morning all excited about a 1/2 a dozen projects I have in mind for Black powder. It keeps My 21 year old mind active I guess. THANKS for Your help with My latest questions :wink: ADC Trapper

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sorry about your health Sir but happy to read that your spirit is high, keep making smoke :hatsoff:

 

[Runner]

Enbrel! My RA has been recorded over 1600 on a scale where 75 would be positive. Enbrel has allowed me to live an almost normal year or better since I started taking it. I am down to 235 pounds and in better shape than I have been in ten years. I may be able to return to work!!!

 

[steeltrap]

I tryed embrel about 4 years ago, It did not work for Me. Neither did remacade. I'M taking metholtrexiate, Arava, and neproxin, All 3 don't quite get the job done so I also have to take steroids also for the pain. I also take a 1/2 a handfull of stuff to help offset the side effects of those four :surrender: I guess it is the price I pay for Making a living in the out of doors My whole life. Wadeing Beaver swamps And Trapping for a living. Oh well I have no regrets I lived life doing what I wanted to do for a living. Not everybody can say that...........USDA Animal Damage Control/ Wildlife Services forced Me to retire or else I would still be trying to do My best an hour a day solving Wildlife damage problems. At least they put a check in My mailbox every month. And I have a Loving Wife Who lets Me spend money on Black Powder. What more could a Guy ask for. :haha: THANKS for the tip though embrel works for a lot of Folks. SINCERLY ADC Trapper

 

[Runner]

They can run you on Interferon and Rebitol for three months and basically hard boot your immune system. You would be sick as a dog for the time you are on it, but at the end all inflammation will be gone. From there, Enbrel and Leflunimide keep me going now!
If your doctor ever suggests Interferon therapy, hang on to your hat until it is over. It made me so sick that I never even noticed that most of the normal pain was gone until they stopped it. That and a wonderful doc have provided answers for me.

 

[Mad Professor]

My 12 ga toledo barrel is a full choke (0.690). I just purchased a punch (3/4 in.) and it seems to cuts wads that work well from cereal boxes. I'll punch a couple out tonite and measure their dia. These and wonderwads get by the choke O.K. on their edge then straighten out when I seat them using a jag that is nearly bore size. I'm also going to look at some slightly thicker cardboard stock for my cut wads

Right now I'm playing with a wonder wad, a couple of my cut wads, hardened # 5 shot with a single overshot card. Still need to juggle the shot/powder (FFg) ratios.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The OS cards are .010: thick and slick on both sides, like shirt backs. ( Those are the sheets of cardboard that are put into new shirts so they display flat and look good. We all throw them away, unless you have your own punch and can use them to make wads! :thumbsup:

 

[Runner]

I use a thick, almost .250, over powder Nitro brand wad. I start them flat and use the round part of a short starter to start them into the choke. My gun likes the more open choke tubes for most things, but I load my turkey loads the same way thru the full tube. I get excellant patterns out to 40 yards.
I have not tried the multi card method a lot of folks here rave about. I found a bag of old over shot cards when I was looking for the 36 short starter to go squirrel hunting this past weekend. I am going to use them to experiment next time I have the shotgun on the range. I just split a layer off the top of one of the nitro wads for an over shot card usually, and the others are just gathering dust anyway.