12 gauge muzzleloader help

[st_lgarret01]

me and my uncle got ourselves a pedersoli 12 gauge shotgun today from cabelas. i am familiar with using bp pistols and rifles, but i aint never dealt with a shotgun before. the sales employee explained how to load them but i aint 100% sure on the subject yet.

does anyone have any instructions on how to load one of them things right?
we purchased some plastic wads for bp guns along with charge wads and overshot cards, and some #5 shot made by TC i think.
any suggested loads or little trick yall know would be great, like suggested powder charge or loading procedure.
barrel length is 18"-20"
thanks.

 

[rabjr]

Read this,
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

 

[Lorne Johnson]

What you load depends on what you want to do. Using the same volume scoop for powder and shot is the rule of thumb. For clays I like about 7/8 ounce of shot (8's not 5's), for ducks I use 1 1/4 ounce non-toxic tungsten of some kind and a 3 1/4 dram load of powder.

That gun has interchangeable choke tubes with lethal cutting edges that make loading very hard. Paul V is likely to chime in with a lengthy, but very useful drill for loading through those chokes. Basically it's about 4 overshot cards as the powder card followed by the shot followed by one last overshot card.

 

[Leatherbark]

You gotta watch most of those plastic wads are meant to go inside of a hull making them too small. They may or may not swell out and seal the bore upong firing............I tried them once and it looked like a whole lot of blowby.

Some people do cut off the power piston section and just use the shotcup for shot protection.

I think you will end up just using regular wads for the best pattern consistancy.

Bob

 

[Lorne Johnson]

I'm curious. How do you measure the "blow-by."

 

[paulvallandigham]

Oh, boy. " Blow-By" is where gases BLOW BY the wads, cutting the ball, or pellets in a gun. It can happen in bullet guns, including breechloading cartridge guns, as well as with rifles, pistols, and shotguns, smokeless, or Black powder.

For any gun to work properly, the projectile( In the case of any shotgun, this is either a single ball or slug, OR a load of shot pellets, and the wads, and cup that push the shot up the barrel when the gun is fired) you need a good gas seal between the powder and the projectile. In shotguns, this means the EDGES OF YOUR WADS, and the diameter of the wad, become the Most important part of the load.

Pushing wads into the barrel can be problematic if the barrels have Chokes at the muzzles. Since you have not indicated that your new shotgun is choked, I won't bother explaining Iron Jim Rackham's solution to dealing with chokes.

If you have, or can get a copy of a Dixie Gun Works catalog, it has good information at the back of the catalog on how to go about loading shotguns. I also like the Bob Spensr sight, already given you, But would refer you to the V.M. Starr article on that sight to read, so that you better understand how to load, and the limitations of, Black powder shotguns. These are NOT substitutes for modern Smokeless powder shotguns, choked or cylinder bore.

Have fun with the new gun. :thumbsup:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I'm curious. How do you measure the "blow-by."

I cannot speak for Leatherbark, or directly to the question when using plastic shotcups, but I do have some experience with identifying blow-by when using paper or card shot protectors of various sorts. My 16ga has somewhat rough bores, and besides needing a good overpowder seal, I almost always use some sort of shot protection, most often a "2-petal" sort rather like the Alcan shot protector, or the greased ticking version that has been discussed recently. While I was experimenting to establish the minimum number of cards of different sorts (milk carton, cereal box, 22-point pressboard, commercial O/S cards) that would reliably seal over the powder, I could clearly identify brown burn streaks on the recovered shot protectors (or bits thereof) that were unambiguously differentiable from fouling and/or lube.

For working with the plastic components, I would hypothesize that increased plastic fouling in the bore and/or burn/melt marks on recovered wads/shot protectors might be identifiable.

Regards,
Joel

 

[Lorne Johnson]

I know what blow-by means. I'm just curious as to how folks have measured it.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Dump the plas wads and just take the over shot cards.
Four on the powder, one on the shot. Supposed to be simple!

A little BP lube in a small cap tin or similar will be handy if the fouling gets crusty. Just put a dollope between the card wads and ram home.

Brits.

 

[st_lgarret01]

we were just going to mess around and shoot it and some other bp guns in celebration of our independance.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Blow-by is visible as melting, burning and tearing away at the plastic shot cup. Examining the spent shot cup, like checking spent patches, is the best way to know what's going on inside the barrel.

Remember that 12 gauge plastic shot cups are actually too small in diameter for most 12 gauge BP shotguns. They are closer to 13 gauge, so that they can fit in the thick plastic walled shotgun shells used today.

If your gun has CHOKE at the muzzle, it may be difficult, if not impossible to get the plastic shot cup down the muzzle, depending on the amount of choke in the barrel. Its common to see people actually tear the cups trying to insert them through full choke barrels.

There are much better ways to shoot shot loads in MLers, than by using modern plastic shot cups. The cups can be used, but you have to deal with the ADDED problems they make for every shooter.

 

[st_lgarret01]

do yall guys have any particular brand or type of wad that you prefer over the others, and where'd you get them.
also, is there any good substitute like someone said, cereal boxes or anything?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Circle Fly makes a lot of different wads and cards, sold by lots of the vendors. The North Maine company that succeeded the Ox-Yoke company is also supposed to make wads, but I have not seen them for sale yet.

Shot Cards are made from the same stock that makes the shirt backs you get with a new shirt. Its about .10" thick, according to the information I find at the Track of the Wolf site, and catalog.

OP wads come in different thicknesses. I use the 1/8" thick( .125") in my shotgun, made of Vegetable Fibers by Walters. Cushion wads are typically thicker- 1/2"--- and are made from a variety of substances. Celotex, the home insulation board is the cheapest and most widely available for the home maker using punches to cut out wads. For the prices being asked by Track, and other suppliers for the wads, and cards, I can't justify the time it would take to cut or punch out my own cards and wads.

I have seen styrofoam trays, commonly used by meat departments to hold cuts of meat, covered in plastic wrap, used to make wads. The wads work well. Some shooters will buy thicker sheets of styrofoam to make cushion wads. It comes in all kinds of colors, and makes interesting litter on a trap range.

I personally don't use the synthetic products because they are not biodegradable. But, that is my personal choice. I do not impose my environmental concerns on anyone else. :thumbsup:

 

[ohio ramrod]

At 18 to 20 inch barrelsa you have what is refered to as a "coach Gun ". What I shoot in my full length pedroseli 12 gauge SxS is 1 &1/8 ounce shot in a paper shot cartridge made of three thicknesses of newsprint tied with kite string, over a 1/2 inch ( or 2 1/4 ) wads on top of 75 grain FF. I use #4 for geese,ducks, and turket, sixs for rabits and pheasants, and 7 &1/2 for trap with good results.

 

[Leatherbark]

Didn't have a need for measuring it. Can't figure out what unit of measurement to use if I wanted to measure it or what to use as a control. When I pick up a WAA12R wad and its gas check is not flared any at all and sides are black and show evidence of melting because the plastic is now pebbled and not smooth I figure the fire from the black powder charge is passing by it and beating it to the end of the barrel. Now after cutting off the piston and gas check part and putting a nitro card under it the WAA12R shot cup looked a whole lot better and I had high hopes for better patterns, but didnt....................Bob

 

[paulvallandigham]

The " Secret" to better patterns with any MLer is to REDUCE the powder charge, not increase it. Most shooters are trying to duplicate Smokeless Powder velocities. Only the low end velocities can be reached, using BP. For the most part, BP loads are Sub Sonic. If you try to make them Super Sonic, you blow the pattern.

Consider these shotguns 30 yard guns, regarding patterns. Then, to get added "punch" at that range, use a larger size shot pellet, and more of it, compared to what you might use with smokeless powder. Increasing the amount of shot will make up the difference in pellet count that occurs when you go from a smaller shot size to a larger shot size. If you do Choke the barrel(s), on a BP shotgun, you can improve the Density of the pattern, but Not the velocity. Black Powder simply is not up to it.

Don't despair: The Commercial Duck Hunters on the Illinois River back in the 1880s used a lowly 2 3/4 dram load of BP behind a 1 1/4" oz. load of shot to kill ducks out to 50 yds. in their 12 gauge guns. That load is only about 1,000 fps. at the Muzzle. ( MV) [Once shot travels below the speed of sound( sub-sonic) it loses velocity at a much slower rate of speed than when its pushed out at super-sonic MVs.]

Most Smokeless powder loads that are supersonic lose all that velocity and become sub-sonic at about 20 yds., BTW. Look it up in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual.

Using any kind of shot cup( Plastic, Paper, or Fabric) to protect the outer pellets in your load from rubbing against the bore, and getting flats, will improve your patterns, and improve the pellet count in the pattern. The Cup Does delay the opening of the pattern, and thereby gives it some "choke effect". You have to count pellets on the paper, both with and without some kind of shot cup, to see the improvement, but its there.

You might want to try putting a collar of card stock inside the cup of any AA plastic wad, to keep the shot column together that little bit longer after it leaves the muzzle. That will tighten the pattern some more. As long as the strips of card stock are cut the same width, the amount of tightening should be consistent from shot to shot.

The real problem using AA wads is that they are smaller in diameter than the bore of the shotguns, usually, and the wad and shot tilt as they are traveling out the barrel. If the shot column leaves the muzzle tilted, the patterns will be inconsistent down range. BTDT :redface: :shocked2: :idunno: :thumbsup: You might try using the shot cups sold by Ballistics Products for use with steel shot instead. I think you will get better results in a BP shotgun barrel. :hatsoff:

 

[ohio ramrod]

I refer the paper cartridges rolled three thickness of news print to hold the shot. But I have used the plastic shot colums, The Winchester red wads are slightly larger than the AA and work better in a muzzle loader.My wayward son still uses the plastic columns but then he uses a Baveria Leader (new fangled thing made in the late 1800's ) more than the smoke pole.

 

[papellet]

Check out rmc sports online catalog and their item number 7300 for the 12 gauge. I have used these with my choked tc new englander for years. I use two over the powder and one over the shot, they go thru choked tubes easily.

 

[Leatherbark]

Good info in that Lyman manual. I did all of my experimenting in the late eighties with my New Englander with all sorts of wads (plastic and fiber)along with shotcups made from post-it notes and index cardstock. I remember going back to what Thompson Center recommended (two fiber wads under the shot and one fiber wad over).
Then in the last several years I found out here that those big old wads were blowing my patterns.

I decided in the last few years that if you start carrying all sorts of wads and shotcup stuff, these muzzleloading shotguns get complicated trying to find all that stuff in the bag. Recently I have been using nothing but a wool wonder wad under the shot and one over and always use less volume powder to shot ratio and my non-choked smoothbores are 30 yard guns and that is it.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Thanks, Leatherback. Useful information there.