12L14 barrel comes apart

[oldwood]

About 3 yrs. ago , there was a write up about a custom long rifle barrel , that failed right where the ball was short started. At that place , also , a forward barrel pinning loop , was milled in the bottom barrel flat. . The barrel probably would never failed , had the ball been properly seated on the powder. In 50+ years around m/l 's used properly , I know of no other barrel failures , except for one being loaded by teenager's using smokeless powder..........oldwood

 

[M. De Land]

There may be a little truth to that, but avoiding the softer steel really limits your options on shopping for a muzzleloader since that may be what almost all manufacturers use.

I only use Green Mountain 1137 steel barrels now for muzzle loaders and Douglas 4140 steel for HP guns.

 

[M. De Land]

About 3 yrs. ago , there was a write up about a custom long rifle barrel , that failed right where the ball was short started. At that place , also , a forward barrel pinning loop , was milled in the bottom barrel flat. . The barrel probably would never failed , had the ball been properly seated on the powder. In 50+ years around m/l 's used properly , I know of no other barrel failures , except for one being loaded by teenager's using smokeless powder..........oldwood

Short starts are far more common than most folks are willing to admit and very often go unnoticed by new shooters unless something gives.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I know the person who gave me the information is reliable, very precise in his description of the event and I physically examined the gun in question. I will examine it again in greater detail as he is bringing the rifle and splintered stock over today. The stock should also have some contributing evidence to add to the incident cause.
Only my memory and interpretation of what he said would be in question so I will revisit that when he comes by today.

You're just not getting that second hand information, is not evidentiary....

No reason to bandy any further words with you on the subject

LD

 

[rickpa]

Ever the Devils advocate and very fond of Damascus & twist barrels and never managed to burst any antient Scelp barrel or any modern barrels includeing Douglass & Orian barrels that some Burket ' Expert ' engaged several issues of' Muzzle Blast ' condemning Jerry Cunningham who had made thousand of barrels & the expert Burket never made one . (Where the best is like the worst where there aint no' ten comandments' & a man can raise a thirst)

Not that I want to pick a nit but I think it was the old Buckskin Report that covered this. I still have them around somewhere. I have one of Jerry's 35" .50 Orion barrels that I bought around 1978. It's one of my most accurate rifles. And I do like Kipling although I've never Kippled. ( When 'arf yer bullets fly wide in the ditch, and you call yer Martini a bloody old b*tch. She's a lady, son, you treat her as sich, and she'll fight for the young British sojer)

 

[M. De Land]

You're just not getting that second hand information, is not evidentiary....

No reason to bandy any further words with you on the subject

LD

I'm talking about an eye witness account that "is" considered evidence in any court. Besides that, I now have the rifle and stock fragments in my possession and will begin an in depth investigation of my own. In talking to the owner today and having him rehearse the entire event, I did find out I had one error in my memory. The patched ball was not ten inches down bore (that was the approximate length of the split I observed on Saturday) it was at the end of the short starter as will be seen in the pictures I will post. The total length of the observable split was measured at a bit over 12 inches.
Also there was a tennon near the origin of the split but it was ahead of the obstruction and bulge and played no part in the barrel failure that I can detect at this point . The ball was ejected.
I will bore scope it as well and see what can be observed down barrel.
One more detail learned today,the charge was less than the 55 grains the charger was set at using 2 F Goex as the new shooter spilled some of it while loading . That is a mild load for a 50 cal patched ball gun.

 

[M. De Land]

I'm talking about an eye witness account that "is" considered evidence in any court. Besides that, I now have the rifle and stock fragments in my possession and will begin an in depth investigation of my own. In talking to the owner today and having him rehearse the entire event, I did find out I had one error in my memory. The patched ball was not ten inches down bore (that was the approximate length of the split I observed on Saturday) it was at the end of the short starter as will be seen in the pictures I will post. The total length of the observable split was measured at a bit over 12 inches.
Also there was a tennon near the origin of the split but it was ahead of the obstruction and bulge and played no part in the barrel failure that I can detect at this point . The ball was ejected.
I will bore scope it as well and see what can be observed down barrel.
One more detail learned today,the charge was less than the 55 grains the charger was set at using 2 F Goex as the new shooter spilled some of it while loading . That is a mild load for a 50 cal patched ball gun.

Well my examination is done with as much as is available for me to discover. The bore scope revealed that the burst crack followed the corner of a single groove which I would expect in the absence of a seam or inclusion that could divert its direction.
The barrel is bulged at the short starter length and is the origin of the split.
The OD of the swamped barrel is .750 at the bulge so for a .500 groove diameter that would be a barrel wall thickness at the burst origin of .125 which should be more than adequate even at the breech for barrel quality steel.
The barrel tennon played no part in the barrel failure as it is in a different flat and ahead of the bulge.
Notice the helix angle of the crack following the groove.
My conclusive opinion is that the poor hoop stress strength of 12L14 is the most likely cause of the burst barrel considering the mild charge and positioning of the short started patched ball.

 

[vintovka]

One wonders where any of our steel comes from nowadays??

 

[Rudyard]

Oldwood may have read the rebuttle in Buckskin Report . But It ran in Muzzle Blasts I wrote for Baird an article on Pinfires

Not that I want to pick a nit but I think it was the old Buckskin Report that covered this. I still have them around somewhere. I have one of Jerry's 35" .50 Orion barrels that I bought around 1978. It's one of my most accurate rifles. And I do like Kipling although I've never Kippled. ( When 'arf yer bullets fly wide in the ditch, and you call yer Martini a bloody old b*tch. She's a lady, son, you treat her as sich, and she'll fight for the young British sojer)

You may be right I did get Muzzle Blasts but not many B skin Report might been in both . Re Kiplings the' Young British Soldier I believe the Line is.

"When arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch",Don't call your Martini a 'cross eyed old ***** ' ,She' as human as you are , You treat as sich An Shele fight for the Young British Soldier ! "
I think theirs a line '

"When shakeing thier bustles like Ladies so fine " The guns of the enemy wheel into line .'" Shoot low at the limbers an don't mind the shine cos noise never startled a Soldier " cant find my copy but sounds about right .I bought lots of Orion Brls . I found Jerry Cunningham a very remarkable Gentleman and good to deal with . He even made me some what he described as "bloody brutal Baker barrels " Being I suppose out of the common line .
Regards Rudyard
(The Original says' *****'Not 'gripe' BTW) some how ***** becomes some PC ? gripe.' Its *****' as in female dog B i t c h .

 

[Brokennock]

Well my examination is done with as much as is available for me to discover. The bore scope revealed that the burst crack followed the corner of a single groove which I would expect in the absence of a seam or inclusion that could divert its direction.
The barrel is bulged at the short starter length and is the origin of the split.
The OD of the swamped barrel is .750 at the bulge so for a .500 groove diameter that would be a barrel wall thickness at the burst origin of .125 which should be more than adequate even at the breech for barrel quality steel.
The barrel tennon played no part in the barrel failure as it is in a different flat and ahead of the bulge.
Notice the helix angle of the crack following the groove.
My conclusive opinion is that the poor hoop stress strength of 12L14 is the most likely cause of the burst barrel considering the mild charge and positioning of the short started patched ball.
View attachment 105939View attachment 105940View attachment 105941View attachment 105942View attachment 105943View attachment 105939View attachment 105940View attachment 105941View attachment 105942View attachment 105943

The new shooter got the patched ball down bore about ten inches

So, to L.D.'s point, this does not look like 10 inches to me, which is what you were told.
I based my original reply and question on that 10 inch seating depth.
We can't always rely on what someone tells us happened. The person helping the new shooter already admitted he had been distracted.

Either way, and regardless of what material this barrel was made of, If the ball had been seated on the powder this gun would still be functional.

If, we could say that a barrel of another material would have held up to this, a margin of error and some harm reduction in case of a short start would admittedly be nice. But, especially with muzzleloaders, we have limited resources to get the barrel profiles we want. Of the only barrel available in a given profile needed for a certain style gun is made from this material, and one feels it is inferior, either don't build that style gun with that profile, or, be extra careful.
But, I still think the only way to really say that the steel has any fault here would be to use the same charge in several more barrel of the same material, and several of each of the other materials, deliberately short start a matching ball and patch combo, and fire them.
If all the barrel of this material burst, and none of the others do, you might be on to something.

 

[FishDFly]

There was an article Muzzle Blasts in the last several years by the Bevel Brothers about short starting and barrel bulging and ruptures.. Maybe someone has it and can review it, don't know if they discussed the different barrel steels or not. Do remember that they said bulging was very rare.

 

[TFoley]

I shoot a Douglas barrel as does my nephew and his son. The barrels have held up for many thousand shots with no problems. In fact my nephew and his son took first and second place at a turkey shoot earlier today. The barrels are completely safe if used properly.

^This.

 

[Tumbledown]

Failure to seat the ball created a pipe bomb. The slower burn of BP, and the huge space between the charge and the ball, just made for a slower explosion and spread the stress out along the barrel. The shooter and instructor are more to blame than the steel.

 

[Okie Hog]

The barrel would be intact had the shooter properly loaded the rifle. i won't condemn a product where personal negligence is involved.

Years ago a "muzzleloader expert, ", in the pockets of a Tulsa personal injury lawyer, crusaded against one particular make of muzzleloader. Met a man who was present when the rifle cited in a much ballyhooed court case blew up and badly injured the shooter. Sitting on the shooting bench was a container of IMR powder. Man said he thought it was IMR 3031.

I know of no other barrel failures , except for one being loaded by teenager's using smokeless powder..........oldwood

Think i remember that one. The barrel blew out at the tenon dovetail.

Used to follow reports of blown up muzzleloaders. Pictures of horrible injuries caused by shooter negligence.

 

[FlinterNick]

A shooting friend of mine showed me a once nice .50 cal flint lock rifle with a swamped barrel he has, at the indoor match yesterday; that had split the barrel and blew the front part of the full stock apart. No one was hurt but it was an eye opener to examine. Jeff said it happened at last months indoor match which I missed.
He had loaned it to a new shooter and was talking him through the loading sequence and got interrupted just as the ball was about to be pushed home. The new shooter got the patched ball down bore about ten inches as I understand it and for some reason decided that was good enough and touched it off before Jeff could get back to him.
The barrel looked like the split started just ahead of the narrowest part of the swamp profile an ran almost to the muzzle.
I have never before seen a patched ball short start at any barrel position even bulge a barrel let alone split it wide open so this was quite a surprise to me.
I am sure short seats happen quite often especially with new shooters and fouled barrels but it's the first barrel I have ever seen split or even be bulged by it from a patch ball.
When I got home I looked up the barrel maker and the steel type used that is posted by Bob Roller on the internet. It is 12L14 but the chart did not say wither it was cold or hot rolled.

I don’t see how the barrel maker could be to blame for this.

If the ball isn’t rammed all the way down in any barrel it creates a gas build up which could burst or blowout the barrel. Essentially a pipe bomb.

 

[Dphar1950]

A shooting friend of mine showed me a once nice .50 cal flint lock rifle with a swamped barrel he has, at the indoor match yesterday; that had split the barrel and blew the front part of the full stock apart. No one was hurt but it was an eye opener to examine. Jeff said it happened at last months indoor match which I missed.
He had loaned it to a new shooter and was talking him through the loading sequence and got interrupted just as the ball was about to be pushed home. The new shooter got the patched ball down bore about ten inches as I understand it and for some reason decided that was good enough and touched it off before Jeff could get back to him.
The barrel looked like the split started just ahead of the narrowest part of the swamp profile an ran almost to the muzzle.
I have never before seen a patched ball short start at any barrel position even bulge a barrel let alone split it wide open so this was quite a surprise to me.
I am sure short seats happen quite often especially with new shooters and fouled barrels but it's the first barrel I have ever seen split or even be bulged by it from a patch ball.
When I got home I looked up the barrel maker and the steel type used that is posted by Bob Roller on the internet. It is 12L14 but the chart did not say wither it was cold or hot rolled.

All 12L14 is cold rolled. No steel maker will recommend it for any gun barrel. LaSalle steel wrote such a letter Its meant for making screws in automatic screw machines. Yes it was a loading error but the barrel would not have split it made from a hot rolled, gun barrel quality steel of the proper alloy. Cold rolled steels are designed to be easy to machine. 12L14 is also called leaded screw stock, it contains significant levels of lead, phosphorus and sulfur to make it easier/faster to machine. These form inclusions in the steel. The cold rolling process makes the steel brittle so the chips break easier and provide a smooth finish. Inclusions and brittle are not something one wants in a gun barrel. But its readily available from almost any steel supplier is small quantities. Steels like hot rolled 4150 in gun barrel quality have to be purchased in furnace melt lots either by one buyer or by a group of buyers to spread the cost. Its not readily available compared to mill run steels and its much harder to cut and barrels will surely need to be lapped. The average ML buyer is not going to pay $500+ for a barrel. And a 4140-4150 barrel is going to coat about this much. But its not going to split because of a short started ball. Bulge maybe, split/break very unlikely. This material or something similar is used for all carbon steel barrels for modern brass suppository guns running pressures of 60K psi sometimes a little more. 4150 has been in use by the US Military for small arms barrels since before WW-II. Ask a metallurgist who understands internal pressure and shock loading as it applies to firearms if 12L14 is a good choice. The quality rating of steels such as Gun Barrel. Aircraft. Nuclear. All refer to the level of inclusions allowed in the bar. For example all piping etc in an oil refinery is Nuclear quality. AND almost ALL modern steel alloys are designed for the particular application. So the next time you are turning a wood screw into a piece of hardwood and it twists off with almost no torque remember its 12L14 and you just ran afoul of one of the inclusions.

 

[Artificer]

AGAIN...,
You were told..., all of the above other than you were shown the barrel had burst...,

It should be 12L14 steel, but..., until tested, you don't Know that... ever heard of a disgruntled employee? The guys at the steel mill could've sent inferior blanks by accident or on purpose, or a guy at the barrel company could've slipped in a bad blank...

You cannot take the second hand information and come to any conclusion. You have a burst barrel, nothing more, and you NEED a lot more. As of right now you have "mere suspicion", and a hypothesis. That Ain't Enough. There needs to be testing.

LD

I could not agree more, having witnessed a case similar to what you are describing in 1980 on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team. Yes, I'm sorry it was an unmentionable rifle, BUT it will become quite apparent how it also pertains to ML rifles a little later on.

The barrel opened up like a banana on BOTH ends, which also broke the front of the receiver, the pressure tore off the rear of the receiver and God only knows how it didn't hit the shooter's face. The stock split at the forearm to well backwards and was the result of the worst injury to the shooter, a lacerated arm. (He was back shooting five days later when a Doctor cleared him.) FORTUNATELY he was wearing real shooting glasses, as there were a number of pieces of brass and steel imbedded in the lenses, that completely saved his eyes. The Dr. did have to remove some small pieces of brass and steel from the rest of his face as well.

Many, but not all of the Shooters wanted to blame the Armorers, but we Armorers knew the guy who barreled the rifle could not have done something to cause such catastrophic failure.

Fortunately, THE premier Firearms Laboratory in the U.S. - H.P. White Laboratory was still in operation and did the most extensive test on the whole gun possible. Their results completely cleared the Armorer, as the barrel had been made of some cheap steel with Sulphur stringers in the alloy and of course that Steel Alloy was NEVER meant to made into gun barrels.

We notified the barrel maker of what happened. He had PAID for best quality SS Barrel Alloy, but the metal supplier screwed up which alloy to send on his order from another order with the low quality steel. So it was not the fault of the barrel maker either.

If barrel makers PAY for good quality barrel metal and the metal suppliers send the WRONG barrel alloy metal, the same can happen with muzzleloading or modern barrels.

Gus

 

[Dphar1950]

I could not agree more, having witnessed a case similar to what you are describing in 1980 on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team. Yes, I'm sorry it was an unmentionable rifle, BUT it will become quite apparent how it also pertains to ML rifles a little later on.

The barrel opened up like a banana on BOTH ends, which also broke the front of the receiver, the pressure tore off the rear of the receiver and God only knows how it didn't hit the shooter's face. The stock split at the forearm to well backwards and was the result of the worst injury to the shooter, a lacerated arm. (He was back shooting five days later when a Doctor cleared him.) FORTUNATELY he was wearing real shooting glasses, as there were a number of pieces of brass and steel imbedded in the lenses, that completely saved his eyes. The Dr. did have to remove some small pieces of brass and steel from the rest of his face as well.

Many, but not all of the Shooters wanted to blame the Armorers, but we Armorers knew the guy who barreled the rifle could not have done something to cause such catastrophic failure.

Fortunately, THE premier Firearms Laboratory in the U.S. - H.P. White Laboratory was still in operation and did the most extensive test on the whole gun possible. Their results completely cleared the Armorer, as the barrel had been made of some cheap steel with Sulphur stringers in the alloy and of course that Steel Alloy was NEVER meant to made into gun barrels.

We notified the barrel maker of what happened. He had PAID for best quality SS Barrel Alloy, but the metal supplier screwed up which alloy to send on his order from another order with the low quality steel. So it was not the fault of the barrel maker either.

If barrel makers PAY for good quality barrel metal and the metal suppliers send the WRONG barrel alloy metal, the same can happen with muzzleloading or modern barrels.

Gus

If you do some research you will find that SS is not a good barrel steel at least not as reliable as 4140/4150. A major European maker had to recall a batch of rifles after a blow up of a new rifle with SS barrel. They said they got a "bad lot" of steel. 416R used widely in the US for SS rifle barrels is not certified for pressure vessel use. I have 2 SS barrels. One on my competitoon brass suppository gun and one on a hunting rifle. But I could not get a 4140-4150 barrel that was cut rifled and lapped. Its near impossible today. And 12L14 the nearly universal ML barrel steel in the US, is loaded with inclusions and stringers. But the pressures are low with a PRB and BP so failures seldom occur unless a bar with a particularly bad inclusion comes along. And BTW proofing will not work on a cold rolled barrel and may actually set up a future failure.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Oldwood may have read the rebuttle in Buckskin Report . But It ran in Muzzle Blasts I wrote for Baird an article on Pinfires

You may be right I did get Muzzle Blasts but not many B skin Report might been in both . Re Kiplings the' Young British Soldier I believe the Line is.

"When arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch",Don't call your Martini a 'cross eyed old gripe ' ,She' as human as you are , You treat as sich An Shele fight for the Young British Soldier ! "
I think theirs a line '

"When shakeing thier bustles like Ladies so fine " The guns of the enemy wheel into line .'" Shoot low at the limbers an don't mind the shine cos noise never startled a Soldier " cant find my copy but sounds about right .I bought lots of Orion Brls . I found Jerry Cunningham a very remarkable Gentleman and good to deal with . He even made me some what he described as "bloody brutal Baker barrels " Being I suppose out of the common line .
Regards Rudyard
(The Original says' gripe'Not 'gripe' BTW) some how gripe becomes some PC ? gripe.' Its gripe' as in female dog B i t c h .

I always though the archaic word for a female dog was gyp or gype. The name is used in the Dr. Dolittle books as the name for talking dog that taught Dr. Dolittle how to talk to the animals. Looks like spell check helped you out by correcting your spelling. .Note that checking the definition of gyp on the internet only comes up as the term for a college servant.

Back to the topic. I thought that the 12L14 barrel that caused all the commotion was burst by someone using smokeless powder. As often stated, and quite valid, 12L14 steel is not suitable for modern gun barrel steel. It is strong enough for the much lower pressures encountered with the use of black powder. I would probably avoid using Triple Seven at max charges in my 12L14 barred rifles.

 

[Dphar1950]

Just was wondering was this barrel ever proofed. All of my builds go through proofing at three time normal charge If not oh well

Can't proof a cold rolled steel barrel. It may simply set up a future failure. Brittle steels are not suitable for gun barrels. Remember the 1144M remington shotgun barrel failures after thousands of rounds due to using a work hardening steel in thin wall barrels?