12L14 barrel comes apart

[M. De Land]

One of the very important numbers on gun barrel steel strength is on two scales Izode and Sharpy, one uses a V notch and the other a U notch in the test material for hoop stress strength. The report said that for comparison a good grade of gun steel would have a number of 42 for this important strength factor and 12L14 has something like a 5 on this scale . The colder the temperature the lower this strength factor degrades.
Over all hoop stress is what we are mostly concerned with in this case which takes into account brittleness, inclusions and seams. Steel can still have impressive tension and compression numbers if no shock load is present, which is the case with 12L14. By the way the digits in 12 L 14 stand for , 1 means carbon steel, 2 means re-sulferized and re-phosphotized , L mean lead and 14 mean the percent in hundreds of the chief alloying agent which in this case is carbon. That is 14-one hundreds of one percent , .14 percent.
By comaparison 1137 and 4140 are a good deal harder but also are not brittle. We often associate hardness with brittleness but this is not necessarily true and is the reason tempering metal is so important.

 

[Notchy Bob]

In southern American English, it is traditional to call a female dog a "jip" (phonetic spelling). I had always thought it was intended as a polite euphemism for the "B" word, suitable for use in conversations with ladies present.

I've always enjoyed reading Kipling, but I didn't remember the verse that was discussed.

Regarding the computer-generated spell-check and correction system, I certainly feel @Rudyard 's pain. I'll swear it waits until I'm not looking, and then changes things on me. It's persistent, too. I've had to correct the corrections two and three times, or just give up and change the word.

I need to remember "illegitimate file." Thank you, Rudyard! You made my day!

Notchy Bob

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Never had an issue with a Douglas or TC barrel . Got one Douglas from 1964 and several not much younger. I would not shoot a short started ball in anybody's barrel . Several posters advised just that as a cure for a stuck projectile in a thread on this board a short while back . Fortunately the individual with the stuck projectile did not heed that bad advice . One poster stated he had done this numerous times in the past with no ill effect . I was told early on not to do this and I trusted the source of that advice so I never did it . I will pull a breech plug if needed rather than taking that chance. Can it be done without damage ? Yup, I have no doubt that it can , until it can't. Not willing to take that risk with my old body parts. Read the links posted below.

Never personally seen or known of anybody blowing up a Douglas barrel that was not in some way obstructed. Not in over 50 years of shooting .

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...cle-short-started-his-brand-new-rifle.135225/

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/minnie-ball-stuck-1861-springfield.134617/

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Bob,
A gyp can be any female dog ,but usually is used to refer to a young female who has not been bred or produced a litter of pups.

 

[FishDFly]

Okay, have learned a lot, but one question. How does the rank and file person here when they buy a rifle or pistol know what type of steel the barrel is made of, or do we just pay attention to loading properly and not worry about it?

 

[M. De Land]

Okay, have learned a lot, but one question. How does the rank and file person here when they buy a rifle or pistol know what type of steel the barrel is made of, or do we just pay attention to loading properly and not worry about it?

It's pretty tough to know with a production gun unless one can ask the factory rep but this is primarily geared to those of us who build our own guns or make them from Kits. Kit guns usually allow you a choice of barrel manufacturer's to choose from. You can go on line and Bob Roller has produced a chart of barrel makers and the steel used in their fabrication.

 

[M. De Land]

Never had an issue with a Douglas or TC barrel . Got one Douglas from 1964 and several not much younger. I would not shoot a short started ball in anybody's barrel . Several posters advised just that as a cure for a stuck projectile in a thread on this board a short while back . Fortunately the individual with the stuck projectile did not heed that bad advice . One poster stated he had done this numerous times in the past with no ill effect . I was told early on not to do this and I trusted the source of that advice so I never did it . I will pull a breech plug if needed rather than taking that chance. Can it be done without damage ? Yup, I have no doubt that it can , until it can't. Not willing to take that risk with my old body parts. Read the links posted below.

Never personally seen or known of anybody blowing up a Douglas barrel that was not in some way obstructed. Not in over 50 years of shooting .

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...cle-short-started-his-brand-new-rifle.135225/

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/minnie-ball-stuck-1861-springfield.134617/

I'm quite sure the pictures in the first link were of a TC barrel. I can tell from the front sight.

 

[Sun City]

It's really conducive to longevity if one keeps the head out of the backside! It's dark up in there!!

 

[mhb]

One of the very important numbers on gun barrel steel strength is on two scales Izode and Sharpy, one uses a V notch and the other a U notch in the test material for hoop stress strength. The report said that for comparison a good grade of gun steel would have a number of 42 for this important strength factor and 12L14 has something like a 5 on this scale . The colder the temperature the lower this strength factor degrades.
Over all hoop stress is what we are mostly concerned with in this case which takes into account brittleness, inclusions and seams. Steel can still have impressive tension and compression numbers if no shock load is present, which is the case with 12L14. By the way the digits in 12 L 14 stand for , 1 means carbon steel, 2 means re-sulferized and re-phosphotized , L mean lead and 14 mean the percent in hundreds of the chief alloying agent which in this case is carbon. That is 14-one hundreds of one percent , .14 percent.
By comaparison 1137 and 4140 are a good deal harder but also are not brittle. We often associate hardness with brittleness but this is not necessarily true and is the reason tempering metal is so important.

As a clarification, the Izod and Charpy (note spelling) tests are impact tests, used to determine toughness of the sample. In testing, the sample of standard size is notched with a standard-sized notch, and the sample struck with a pre-determined force to determine when, and under what stress, the sample breaks.

mhb - MIke

 

[JCKelly]

From Muzzle Blasts, a few decades back. I am told that Douglas would no longer sell barrels to "Pa" Keeler after he published this in Muzzle Blasts. Pa Keeler then made his own of 1018 tubing from Michigan. I made rifles of three Keeler barrels, about 48" long.

I was one of the expert witnesses for the badly damaged plaintiff in the ~1985 trial that was coincident with Douglas ceasing to promote their 12L14 barrels.

 

[M. De Land]

View attachment 106417

From Muzzle Blasts, a few decades back. I am told that Douglas would no longer sell barrels to "Pa" Keeler after he published this in Muzzle Blasts. Pa Keeler then made his own of 1018 tubing from Michigan. I made rifles of three Keeler barrels, about 48" long.

I was one of the expert witnesses for the badly damaged plaintiff in the ~1985 trial that was coincident with Douglas ceasing to promote their 12L14 barrels.

Boy, does that crack look familiar or what ?I see it also follows a groove helix .

 

[M. De Land]

As a clarification, the Izod and Charpy (note spelling) tests are impact tests, used to determine toughness of the sample. In testing, the sample of standard size is notched with a standard-sized notch, and the sample struck with a pre-determined force to determine when, and under what stress, the sample breaks.

mhb - MIke

Thanks for the spelling help Mike ! Oh, by the way the barrel in my pictures was not a Douglas in case folks were thinking it was.

 

[M. De Land]

View attachment 106417

From Muzzle Blasts, a few decades back. I am told that Douglas would no longer sell barrels to "Pa" Keeler after he published this in Muzzle Blasts. Pa Keeler then made his own of 1018 tubing from Michigan. I made rifles of three Keeler barrels, about 48" long.

I was one of the expert witnesses for the badly damaged plaintiff in the ~1985 trial that was coincident with Douglas ceasing to promote their 12L14 barrels.

That's a good idea (test firing) that I have not followed but should, even though I only use barrels of certified gun steel !

 

[waksupi]

The only bulged barrels I have ever seen could be attributed to a short started ball. When the old Sharon Rifle Barrel Co. did destructive testing,the only way thy could damage a barrel was by separating the projectile from the powder.

 

[GBG]

I summed up these 15 failures in a three-part article published in Muzzle Blasts Oct, Nov and Dec 1985. I will be glad to send a complete copy to any of you who will send me you real email.

PM sent.

 

[Stony Broke]

I've witnessed this very thing several times with the same result you had. I personally ruined a .50 cal TC Hawken barrel about 40 years ago by ringing it with a maxi ball that had worked forward in the barrel after carrying it all day in the rain with the muzzle tilted down. I shot a grouse on the way home and noticed the ring at the next range session. Odd I didn't notice it while cleaning in the field but I didn't.
The Maxi of course is three times heavier than is a patched ball. It bulged but did not rupture.

I put together a .50 ca. TC Hawken kit years ago and gave it to a good friend. After about a year or so he managed to load a prb about 5 inches into the barrel, over 50 gr. of powder. It left a pretty noticeable ring around the barrel. We ended up shortening the barrel and made a little different looking rifle out of it, but it kept working okay.

 

[wattlebuster]

Ive seen this 12L14 argument for many yrs on this and other forums. I have yet to hear of a 12L14 failure EXCEPT for user error. If you short start it will be trouble. Overload it will be trouble. Smokeless powder it will be a disaster. Human error can destroy anything. My 12L14 barrels shoot great an do just as they were designed to do. If I screw up its my fault an not the barrels maker or material used. You can ruin a modern rifle made of gun Quality steel if you use it incorrectly. The titanic was unsinkable but they didnt test it against giant icebergs

 

[M. De Land]

Ive seen this 12L14 argument for many yrs on this and other forums. I have yet to hear of a 12L14 failure EXCEPT for user error. If you short start it will be trouble. Overload it will be trouble. Smokeless powder it will be a disaster. Human error can destroy anything. My 12L14 barrels shoot great an do just as they were designed to do. If I screw up its my fault an not the barrels maker or material used. You can ruin a modern rifle made of gun Quality steel if you use it incorrectly. The titanic was unsinkable but they didnt test it against giant icebergs

The trouble with that line of thinking is the same as using inferior steel not designed for the intended purpose for anything that can cause human harm, be it auto ,building, bridge , aircraft or fire arm. Would you cross a bridge or fly in an airplane if you knew it was fabricated with weak metal not designed to handle the stress it will operate in and have no built in safety margin for any human error?
Folks just don't want to except that their prized firearm can betray them with even a minor error common to every one and especially as they get older.

 

[wattlebuster]

An IF it does happen I will not blame the barrel or its maker. They are not responsible for my mistakes or plain ol stupidity.

 

[George]

You can ruin a modern rifle made of gun Quality steel if you use it incorrectly.

I'm sure this barrel was made of gun quality steel.

Then it came up against stupid.

Spence