1627 Snaphance Pistol

[Colonial Boy]

Another fine pistol from my favourite Australian vendor, even though I can’t afford 99% of his stuff.

A 1627 Snaphance.
The site, which is fairly extensive, is easy to follow and has no restrictions on copying, is called ‘Steel and Shot’;
https://steelandshot.com.au/

 

[rickystl]

Hi. Do you know if this pistol has an actual date of 1627 on it ? There's a reason I'm asking. Looks Italian. Possibly South Italy.

Rick

 

[OLUT]

On the barrel ... even with the Aussie dollar at 2/3 the US dollar, the vendor is WAY beyond my pocketbook. I have a similar, but unmarked one and this posting helps me approximately date mine. Thanks for the posting

 

[dave_person]

Hi, Rick,
Despite the barrel markings, that pistol was likely made in the late 18th century in Italy. The maker may have used an old Spanish barrel by Pedro Munoz assuming the marks are not forgeries. Munoz was a famous Spanish maker from Seville who worked in the late 16th century and signed his name on the barrels rather than use maker's marks. It was not uncommon to use old Spanish barrels because they were esteemed so highly all over Europe.

dave

 

[rickystl]

Hi, Rick,
Despite the barrel markings, that pistol was likely made in the late 18th century in Italy. The maker may have used an old Spanish barrel by Pedro Munoz assuming the marks are not forgeries. Munoz was a famous Spanish maker from Seville who worked in the late 16th century and signed his name on the barrels rather than use maker's marks. It was not uncommon to use old Spanish barrels because they were esteemed so highly all over Europe.

dave

Hi Dave

Much agree with your analysis. That was the reason for my original question. The stock contour and furnishings look very much mid-late 18th Century. In Italy, for some reason, the continued use of the snaphaunce lock on high quality individual pistols, commissioned by the aristocratic class remained in vogue through the early 19th Century. Never really understood this. Possibly something similar to the Germans/Bavarians re-introducing the wheellock during the 18th Century for hunting use for their aristocratic classes.
And, as you mention, the re-use of an older, high quality Spanish barrel on a later gun build would have not been unusual. Especially considering Southern Italy was controlled by Spain during this period. It's certainly a beautiful pistol.

Rick

 

[PathfinderNC]

It’s drop-dead gorgeous.

 

[CaptainVane]

How is this different than a flintlock? I'm not seeing it.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Pan cover separate, captain.

 

[dave_person]

How is this different than a flintlock? I'm not seeing it.

Hi,
It is not a true flintlock (defined as the French design of the early 17th century that was eventually almost universally adopted) because the pan cover and battery are separate components. On flintlocks they are combined into what moderns call the frizzen. Moreover, the lock may have a lateral sear protruding through the lock plate in front of the cock but the photos are not clear enough to tell. That is another feature on many snaphaunces although late versions may just have internal notches in the tumbler. The older snaphaunce design might have remained popular in some circles because the battery (steel) offers excellent artistic potential for decoration and the lock can be loaded and primed, and carried safely simply by pushing the battery forward.

dave

 

[Flintlock1640]

For what it's worth that barrel is nothing similar to a barrel of the style of the 1620s. I would say the entire pistol was made about 1690-1720. They utilized a fake marking even back then just like all the fake Cominazzo barrels.

 

[Flintlock1640]

Just to illustrate. A barrel of the first half of the 17th century should look like this

 

[Rudyard]

For what it's worth that barrel is nothing similar to a barrel of the style of the 1620s. I would say the entire pistol was made about 1690-1720. They utilized a fake marking even back then just like all the fake Cominazzo barrels.

Interesting observations on this pistol and the use of older styles by some nations its beyound me to get specific but nice work is nice work whenever its made No reflection on Flintlock1640s observations .I watched the add about the French matchlock he's an FME by my notions based on experience most of such' Experts' are
..Old cremudgeon Rudyard

 

[Flintlock1640]

Interesting observations on this pistol and the use of older styles by some nations its beyound me to get specific but nice work is nice work whenever its made No reflection on Flintlock1640s observations .I watched the add about the French matchlock he's an FME by my notions based on experience most of such' Experts' are
..Old cremudgeon Rudyard

I would never say that that isn't a gorgeous pistol and lovely work. I only commented at all to help with learning and knowledge. The easiest way to kill a hobby is to not share with others. Most people can't tell if a flintlock is 1780s or 1680s (or 1840s...). The best I can recommend for that is Torsten Lenk's The Origin of the Flintlock. He really goes into the different styles and eras. You can also learn a lot by browsing auction companies that often carry older arms like Hermann Historica. They are always high and I don't know how they get the prices they do but they are usually pretty spot-on for description. For good deals you gotta know what you are looking at. I bought an original, complete (though rough) flintlock pistol a few months ago for $65. It was a sporting auction with mostly black plastic. The next oldest piece in the auction was probably made just before WWI and here is this outlier made in the early 1700s. They didn't know what it was and their description was awful.

 

[Rudyard]

I would never say that that isn't a gorgeous pistol and lovely work. I only commented at all to help with learning and knowledge. The easiest way to kill a hobby is to not share with others. Most people can't tell if a flintlock is 1780s or 1680s (or 1840s...). The best I can recommend for that is Torsten Lenk's The Origin of the Flintlock. He really goes into the different styles and eras. You can also learn a lot by browsing auction companies that often carry older arms like Hermann Historica. They are always high and I don't know how they get the prices they do but they are usually pretty spot-on for description. For good deals you gotta know what you are looking at. I bought an original, complete (though rough) flintlock pistol a few months ago for $65. It was a sporting auction with mostly black plastic. The next oldest piece in the auction was probably made just before WWI and here is this outlier made in the early 1700s. They didn't know what it was and their description was awful.

Dear Flintlock 1640 . I wasn't questioning your judgment at all my remarks where aimed at the young Auction house fellow who tells us the flint locks fire faster than the matchlock , he hasn't tried one . As for shareing Ime allways happy to pass on info or aid any proper 'student of arms' as Tobjohn will tell you . My library includes Lenk's classic .Only a FME ( 5 minet expert ) will ever declare he knows it all & the more we know the more we have to except we cant ever know the half of it .So vast is the subject I do know personally some leading lights in this field non would claim expert even in their particular field . I 've made a lot of early stuff but still not in the hunt with the original makers . Dave Person is up their with the old masters many others can do great work. We today work in a time period that reveals us a raft of old makers but they only knew their time period and just their part in a whole production span in a given region . with fewer options generally .
Regards Rudyard .