1700's Flintlock

[vtbuck223]

I don't know if anyone has posted this one in the past...if so...maybe there are some who still haven't seen it. It is at a small museum in Grand Isle, Vermont (the Hyde log cabin). I tried to take the best pics that I could...but it was a little challenging. Any ideas as to the name on the lock...maker...anything else...etc? It is identified in the museum as "a late 1700's flintlock".

 

[rabjr]

Oh nice, it does have the New England style look to it. To bad the museum doesn't wipe it down every so often and stop it from further rust damage...

 

[Matt85]

poor thing needs to be some place that will take care of it.

 

[Dphar]

poor thing needs to be some place that will take care of it.

Assuming its an original, its been converted back to flint from percussion. In fact I think the lock is a complete replacement due to the lack of pitting and I doubt it even works properly since the frizzen spring is way out of position for example. Nor would a working lock have a sharp edge where is is supposed to bear on the spring. Nor should it be possible for the frizzen to stop at that point.
It very well may be a parts gun put together not all that long ago. Stock looks like a cut off flint fowler. The barrel looks percussion or 1/2 barrel based on what I see.
I would need better photos to go any farther.
There is a lot of faked stuff in museums. A letter from the early 20th century, 1920s IIRC, have been found stating that the writer can reproduce powder horns from any era needed in about a month.
This was reported in an issue of the CLA's magazine.
I am 150 miles from the issue right now.
Anyone who is a member for the last couple of years can find it in a past issue of "American Tradition".
Dan

 

[hawkeye2]

My first thoughts were the screw slots look altogether too nice for an old lock. Does that way too wide and non traditional barrel band hide a spliced stock?

 

[jdkerstetter]

Without much doubt a parts gun or at the very least it is much modified from it's original appearence over the years.

The lock appears to have had major work, hammer, frizzen, spring, pan all appear modern replacements and, as Dan pointed out, as part of a reconversion effort...and most likely a non-functional one.

Major wood patch work done both under and above the tail of the lock. Tang bolt doesn't appear to be engaging the trigger plate.

Rammer too short and if that under rib is solid imagine the muzzle weight added to the gun....though it does appear to have some age.

The nosecap appears to be poured and the moulding line incised through it....very odd.

Just a funky gun all around.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[vtbuck223]

Interesting observations all. I agree that it was likely reconverted to flintlock...which is true of 99% of all guns from this era...including many "original flintlock" guns that grace collections and museums. This museum makes no claim that it is in "original" condition only that it was and is a flintlock...which it most certainly was and is. However, as I look at the piece overall...I think I see a very nice original late 1700's New England fowler with a heavy French influence in style. I very much like the overall lines with the Roman nose and the decorative finials. The "under rib" that you mention is wooden...in the style of the day and region. I might have a couple more pics of various angles...I'll check and post if any might be of interest. I am still curious about the name on the lock....it may only be a partial. Also...they had a Bridesburg conversion there as well that I will post some pics of when I get a chance.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Stuck I agree,

Looks like it used to be a circa 1800 gun and has similar vague traits in the butt and butt plate to those by Timothy Rice and others.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Early North Eastern is not my area.

Is it common for North Eastern guns of this vintage to be half stocked from origination?

Pewter poured nose caps common that early?

Any Pennsylvania gun of this vintage I have seen that was half stocked was believed to be a later cut-down...broken forestock etc.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[vtbuck223]

J.D...I don't think that I said what I meant to very well...I believe that you are very likely correct in that this was originally a fullstock...I was simply referring to the use of a wooden rib when it was converted. This gun certainly has undergone some changes over the course of it's lifetime as the owners tried to keep it relevant for their everyday use. Still...I think it is a very interesting piece and it very well reflects the changes that were taking place during the course of it's lifetime.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Perzackly. Full stocked flint gun. Later converted and halved.

 

[jdkerstetter]

vtbuck223 and Capt. Jas. Thanks. I honestly didn't know....I know there are some anomalies in these North Eastern guns that do not show up in other schools.

I aree that it is an interesting piece that shows some honest use over its life. Personally I would have liked to see it remain in it's converted percussion state than to be poorly reconverted to flint. I don't mind proper restorations but this does not appear to be one.

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Dphar]

The "under rib" that you mention is wooden...in the style of the day and region. I might have a couple more pics of various angles...I'll check and post if any might be of interest. I am still curious about the name on the lock....it may only be a partial.

Things can be really hard to judge from photos.

The only photo of the rib shows zero-zero fit on the barrel, like it was soldered on then filed to contour, apparent pitted and colored just like the barrel. I need better picks to see is as wood from this distance. Probably is wood but the photo really looks like iron.
The forend tip could date to 1830 or 1880 or 1980. Its not something I would expect any gunsmith in the 18th century to do. But anything is possible. Forend was apparently busted WAY short. I wonder if the guy that did the forend cap could make a rib that nice out of wood. The rib is far too long for the stock its in.
I doubt the frizzen spring would allow the frizzen to remain closed but will force it open to this "rest" position.
At least 2 pieces of wood a have been added to the lock area. This with the busted TG indicates that it's been busted at the lock area badly as well as at the forend. Back in the day restocking would have been easier than fixing it since the fix would be really weak so the fix would not have been worthwhile. But anything is possible.

Lock name looks like "Redfern" to me no "Warranted" etc.

Some flintlock guns in collections were never flintlock in the first place I am sure. But flintlocks fit the collection and are worth more...

Dan

 

[vtbuck223]

Dan...I agree that pictures can be very hard to go by...and I had the advantage of getting up really close and personal to this piece. The next time I am over that way I will see if they will actually let me take it down and take a closer look...maybe get some better pics...it won't hurt to ask anyway. Here are a couple more pics...not much more to go on though....

 

[Dphar]

Yeah different angles change everything and the pins too. :hatsoff:

Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

Is the barrel tapered?

 

[vtbuck223]

I can't answer that....can't give you length of barrel or overall length...or even bore size...unfortunately. Next time I'm over that way I will try and take some measurements and get a closer look.

 

[Many Klatch]

Dan, I appreciate the class on what to look at in an old gun. I had to go back and look at the photos closer to pick up the missing wood around the lock and the bad Frizzen/frizzen spring fit. I probably would have seen these if sitting with it in my hands, but I learned a bit about how to look at photos here.

Many Klatch

 

[KABAR2]

This looks like a parts gun the brass furniture is 1740-50 era the lock looks to be 1770-80's

this gun was probably full stocked at one time and then mondrenized by adding a wood rib with pipes in the early 1800's I had a simular gun still flint with a horn transition to wood rib.... Now that I have said that....

it is ALSO a reconversion to flint this style of plate had an attached pan - not removable also look at the frizzen spring with the curve in it....Repro.... the Cock would work well on an earlier piece... I suspect this is one of the castings Dixie Gun Works used to sell......

 

[rootsy]

Consider the beading on the perimeter of the plate vs the primitive profile and shape of the cock... Replacement is certain. Not to mention patina... Same for the frizzen spring and even the pan.