I have been offered a .50 caliber flintlock that was made in the Remington Custom Shop in the mid 1990's to commemorate the opening of the Remington Company in 1816. Has anyone dealt with this weapon? Is it a good one? I plan on target shooting.
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"1816" Remington .50 caliber
- Thread starter rogue
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Sir, have not heard of the gun but I also don't follow commeratives & etc. But most guns of such are more for looks than anything else & usually are more eye appealing then usefull and are very seldom actually authentic. (as few could afford them if they were)
My suggestion is if you are going to target shoot, I would go where you are going to do allot of shooting & see what the others guys are shooting & look in that direction. Ask to shoulder some of them & get a FEEL for one rather than a looks. If people would buy guns by feel & usefullness & reliability rather than looks they would save a small fortune. Most people buy on looks or what they think is a deal & 6 mo later it is in the closet for the remainder of its life because it is not what they end up needing or wanting.
Hope ya find what ya want tho, this ML'ing is allot of fun. The only thing better than a good flintlock is 2 or more of them !
Keith
Custom Muzzleloaders & Custom Knives
My suggestion is if you are going to target shoot, I would go where you are going to do allot of shooting & see what the others guys are shooting & look in that direction. Ask to shoulder some of them & get a FEEL for one rather than a looks. If people would buy guns by feel & usefullness & reliability rather than looks they would save a small fortune. Most people buy on looks or what they think is a deal & 6 mo later it is in the closet for the remainder of its life because it is not what they end up needing or wanting.
Hope ya find what ya want tho, this ML'ing is allot of fun. The only thing better than a good flintlock is 2 or more of them !
Keith
Custom Muzzleloaders & Custom Knives
When I read your post I was intrigued. I've seen quite a few different muzzle loaders and I read the 'history' of Eliphalet Remington some time ago but I couldn't remember just what an 'original' E. Remington looked like. So away to Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms I went. The book states that no authenticated E.Remington flintlock exists. Apparently Remington made barrels and they can be found from time to time (they are marked) but a complete rifle has yet to be found.
I would think that liability issues would compel Remington to make the firearm safe to shoot or it would be marked Non-firing Replica.
If you purchase the firearm because it's a commemerative you should be aware that the authenticity seems to be in doubt. If you want to own a muzzle loader that fits your needs for target shooting you'd do well to do it the way Birddog6 suggests. If you find that the 'firing line' has it's share of Remington 1816 Commemeratives then you have your answer.
I would think that liability issues would compel Remington to make the firearm safe to shoot or it would be marked Non-firing Replica.
If you purchase the firearm because it's a commemerative you should be aware that the authenticity seems to be in doubt. If you want to own a muzzle loader that fits your needs for target shooting you'd do well to do it the way Birddog6 suggests. If you find that the 'firing line' has it's share of Remington 1816 Commemeratives then you have your answer.
Remington did indeed make a special run of these commemorative Flintlocks several years ago.
They also made a companion matching belt buckle with the rifle inlaid across it...I got a couple buckles, couldn't afford the rifle !!
They also made a companion matching belt buckle with the rifle inlaid across it...I got a couple buckles, couldn't afford the rifle !!
Guest
Voyageur...
Do you by chance have a copy of Sam Fadala's book on American rifles and their makers? For the life of me I can't remember the name of it and my books are all still packed. Anyway, he covers Remington, Oliver Winchester, John Browning, Arthur Savage, the Hawken bros., etc., etc.. I thought there was a picture of an original Remington flint on the first page of the chapter on Remington. I'm asking....I don't trust my memory enough to be certain. Having followed your posts I suspect you're right....but I can't get that photo out of my mind.
Regarding the Remington rifle on this post, I too remember that they were brought out but not the year. I contemplated acquiring one but thought them a bit pricey at the time.....again, if my memory serves me correct. I expect they would be a good rifle, if that's what you wanted.
Vic
Do you by chance have a copy of Sam Fadala's book on American rifles and their makers? For the life of me I can't remember the name of it and my books are all still packed. Anyway, he covers Remington, Oliver Winchester, John Browning, Arthur Savage, the Hawken bros., etc., etc.. I thought there was a picture of an original Remington flint on the first page of the chapter on Remington. I'm asking....I don't trust my memory enough to be certain. Having followed your posts I suspect you're right....but I can't get that photo out of my mind.
Regarding the Remington rifle on this post, I too remember that they were brought out but not the year. I contemplated acquiring one but thought them a bit pricey at the time.....again, if my memory serves me correct. I expect they would be a good rifle, if that's what you wanted.
Vic
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I'm going to have to look that up myself Vic. The Flayderman's I've got is the 8th Edition and the printing history says 2001.
The exact statement goes thus:
"Current judgment by Remington scholars is that Eliphalet II, the first Remington name associated with the arms trade, made barrels only for approximately the first 30 years, never turning out a complete gun during that period.
The issue would appear put to rest by the well documented article of H.J. Swinney ( Gun Report,April, 1987). Nowhere among the many early references quoted is there the slightest mention of gun-making by Remington in those early years. There are, however, among those references to official government documents and various published works numerous citations indicating their barrel making activities..."
"Tradition has it, that while working at his farther's forge near Ilion, New York (German Flats) Eliphalet produced his first entire rifle, somewhere between the years 1816 and 1828. Fact seems to indicate that he turned out barrels only, and not too many at that. The forge was producing farm tools and implements to meet local needs, the additon of gun barrels apparently was the logical expansion of their output to a fertile aea, that of supplying the many gunsmiths working in the central New York area. There certainly was no mass production of such barrels, much less guns. Of the handful of flintlocks that have surfaced attributed to Remington, none have been judged a "true" example of his work, other than possibly the barrel; and that, too, is questionable. It continues to be a matter for contention if such early (1816-1828) barrels were even marked, or how, and in what form those markings were applied." Flayderman's Guide To Antique American Arms 8th Edition, p. 149
Anyhow, that's where I got the information.
Voyageur
The exact statement goes thus:
"Current judgment by Remington scholars is that Eliphalet II, the first Remington name associated with the arms trade, made barrels only for approximately the first 30 years, never turning out a complete gun during that period.
The issue would appear put to rest by the well documented article of H.J. Swinney ( Gun Report,April, 1987). Nowhere among the many early references quoted is there the slightest mention of gun-making by Remington in those early years. There are, however, among those references to official government documents and various published works numerous citations indicating their barrel making activities..."
"Tradition has it, that while working at his farther's forge near Ilion, New York (German Flats) Eliphalet produced his first entire rifle, somewhere between the years 1816 and 1828. Fact seems to indicate that he turned out barrels only, and not too many at that. The forge was producing farm tools and implements to meet local needs, the additon of gun barrels apparently was the logical expansion of their output to a fertile aea, that of supplying the many gunsmiths working in the central New York area. There certainly was no mass production of such barrels, much less guns. Of the handful of flintlocks that have surfaced attributed to Remington, none have been judged a "true" example of his work, other than possibly the barrel; and that, too, is questionable. It continues to be a matter for contention if such early (1816-1828) barrels were even marked, or how, and in what form those markings were applied." Flayderman's Guide To Antique American Arms 8th Edition, p. 149
Anyhow, that's where I got the information.
Voyageur
In the 1990s Remington did indeed make this Flintlock to commemorate E Remingtons production of his fine barrels. They did not say he made rifles because he didn't.
If I recall correctly they wanted somewhere around $2200 for it back then. Production was limited and they were indeed made in the Remington Custom Shop so I would expect the quality to be excellent.
As you don't say what the price being asked is, I will assume it is High.
IMO the problem with Commemorative guns is they loose as much as 80% of their value if they are used at all. (If the present owner has used it and is quoting real high prices you could use this knowledge to argue the price way down!).
I have often thought of buying the Winchester Teddy Roosevelt and saying to hell with the loss and taking it out and shooting it for the fun of it. Then my Scotch side says "Like Hell you Will!!" so I don't.
Let us know how this turns out.
If I recall correctly they wanted somewhere around $2200 for it back then. Production was limited and they were indeed made in the Remington Custom Shop so I would expect the quality to be excellent.
As you don't say what the price being asked is, I will assume it is High.
IMO the problem with Commemorative guns is they loose as much as 80% of their value if they are used at all. (If the present owner has used it and is quoting real high prices you could use this knowledge to argue the price way down!).
I have often thought of buying the Winchester Teddy Roosevelt and saying to hell with the loss and taking it out and shooting it for the fun of it. Then my Scotch side says "Like Hell you Will!!" so I don't.
Let us know how this turns out.
PARTS AVAILABILITY:
It might be a good idea to discuss the parts availability situation with Remington...like TC Arms, when a special run of something is made, it's surprising (and frustrating!) to find how few years that parts remain available for the special runs of rifles.
Maybe ask them who's lock was used...pretty sure Remington didn't set up a whole manufacturing operation just to build a few locks then discard everything...they probably contracted with an
established lock maker somewhere
It might be a good idea to discuss the parts availability situation with Remington...like TC Arms, when a special run of something is made, it's surprising (and frustrating!) to find how few years that parts remain available for the special runs of rifles.
Maybe ask them who's lock was used...pretty sure Remington didn't set up a whole manufacturing operation just to build a few locks then discard everything...they probably contracted with an
established lock maker somewhere
A local gunshop had one of these for quite some time and could not sell it because it was way over priced. It was made for Remington by someone else and looked alot like the fullstock McCoy rifle that was around a few years back. As I recollect from the Remington book the first rifle he built was a halfstock, although they cannot document that for sure. He basically started out building barrels for local folks. Some of his very early rifles that are pictured are half stocks with huge old military surplus locks. In my opinion this replica may have come from the custom shop but was only spruced up there and was built elsewhere.
I bit the bullet, bought it, and it has arrived. Beautiful! For $1600.00 I got it in its original sealed box from a gun dealer. Browned barrel, striped dark maple stock with great figure in the wood and bright brass fittings. Great wood to metal fit. Marked "Remington .50 cal" on top of the barrel, no other marks. Double set triggers. Great feeling as it is brought to the shoulder, great feel and looks, the wife even likes it! For what I see, a fair price and custom nade, in looks if not in truth. Too pretty to shoot perhaps!
Glad to hear your happy with your new rifle.
As I said, I didn't look too closely at the one they had at the NRA Convention here in Phoenix in 1995 because I knew I couldn't afford it but what I saw looked really good.
I am concerned about it though. Without the "BLACK POWDER ONLY--READ AND FOLLOW THE OWNERS MANUAL---DONT SHOOT ANYTHING YOU LIKE---KEEP OUT OF KIDS HANDS---DO NOT DRIVE WITH SUNSCREEN IN PLACE (oh, that wasn't on a gun, that was on my folding windshield sun screen.)-------" marked on the barrel how will you ever know what evils may lurk inside that beautiful gun?
Here's hoping you take it out and put it to the use it was designed for. Go ahead and shoot it.
I've been told by some that the guns I've assembled are too pretty to shoot (while I'm in the act of loading) to which I just say, "this is what they are designed for. It would be a shame to waste them by just hanging them on the wall."..."so your really goin t' shoot it?".....CRACK....."Hay Billy, that gun you said was just fer looks jus blew the X out of that target!!"....
Happy shooting!!
As I said, I didn't look too closely at the one they had at the NRA Convention here in Phoenix in 1995 because I knew I couldn't afford it but what I saw looked really good.
I am concerned about it though. Without the "BLACK POWDER ONLY--READ AND FOLLOW THE OWNERS MANUAL---DONT SHOOT ANYTHING YOU LIKE---KEEP OUT OF KIDS HANDS---DO NOT DRIVE WITH SUNSCREEN IN PLACE (oh, that wasn't on a gun, that was on my folding windshield sun screen.)-------" marked on the barrel how will you ever know what evils may lurk inside that beautiful gun?
Here's hoping you take it out and put it to the use it was designed for. Go ahead and shoot it.
I've been told by some that the guns I've assembled are too pretty to shoot (while I'm in the act of loading) to which I just say, "this is what they are designed for. It would be a shame to waste them by just hanging them on the wall."..."so your really goin t' shoot it?".....CRACK....."Hay Billy, that gun you said was just fer looks jus blew the X out of that target!!"....
Happy shooting!!
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