1841 Mississippi rifle

[Ravenx]

How accurate are the .54 reproduction 1841s out there? Don't the .54s have a 1-66" barrel for shooting patched round ball? How does the accuracy compare to a GPR?

 

That's kind of a blanket question; You'll have to do a bit more research about the different manufacturers of repo Mississippi rifles.
From what I know about the 1841 Mississippi, it's called such because a group of Civil War era Cavalry gents from the state of Mississippi had taken the 1841 Government issue rifle and cut the barrel back to make them shorter and easier too scabard/swing/use while on horseback. After the CW the same rifle was widley available to public because of mass production of the springfeild and more modern repeating rifles.
Because of the famed succsess of that Mississippi Cavalry and/or because of worn out muzzle, it was common practice in the south/south-west to cut the barrel back a few inches for better accuracy using the 1841. Thus making the Misissippi Rifle a "carbine" style.
The general rating of accuracy for shorter "carbine" rifles vrs.long barrels is common knowledge and widley available,,it all depends on what your use/need for the firearm is. luck too ya,,,,

 

[Zonie]

Raven: I can take your question two ways.
How accurate is the reproduction in duplicating the original?
How accurate is one of the reproductions when it's shot?

I don't have much in the way of photos/drawings so I can't say how good it is at reproducing the looks of the original.

I know the 1841 rifle was a .54, and was a caplock.
Jefferson Davis's Mississippi Volunteers used this rifle in the Mexican/American War.

Dixie Gunworks catalog shows a 1841 .54 cal rifle made by Euro Arms (Italy) and their catalog says it has a 33 inch tapered round barrel with 5 lands. The twist is 1:66 which should be good for roundballs, but the depth of the groove is only .007 which IMO is a little shallow for heavy powder loads with a patched ball. (The bore is .540, the grooves are .554 diameter).

Dixie recommends a .530 ball with .015 patch, or a .535 diameter minie ball and 60 grains of FFg.

This particular gun is approved by N/SSA which indicates to me that it is a very close reproduction.

 

[Ravenx]

Sumtacks, the thing you're describing sounds closer to the J.P. Murray Artillery Carbine. But that carbine was made in and of itself, not cut-down from M1841s. The 1841 I'm talking about is a rifle made for U.S. service and served in the Mexican-American War. I've seen a photo of an original 1841 and the repro looks just like it. Maybe some guys cut them down in the Civil War, but I'm talking about the repro of the actual rifle.

Zonie, thanks for the info. It almost sounds like the repro might be a bit picky on loads. If it can only handle 60 grains for a patched ball, then it sounds like it might be a bit anemic also. What's your opinion?

 

[Ravenx]

Oops, I should have also said I'm asking about shooting accuracy.

 

[Hobie]

There's a Mr. Green hereabouts who makes match barrels for these guns, mostly repros, used in NSSA. His barrels from the bench all seem to cut cloverleafs at 50 yards. His are apparently rifled for conicals as that is what he's loading and shooting.

 

[Ravenx]

Thanks. I was wondering about the accuracy as it is stock out of the box. Say, are you Hobie from the Leverguns board?

 

[Zonie]

Raven: As you asked, my opnion is that 60 grains is given by Dixie because it is a totally safe load with this gun. Their legal department is smiling from ear to ear.
It also is very close to the typical military rifle/musket load they used in those days.
With this load, the replica should be accurate after you get little things like patch/ball/powder combinations figured out.

I am sure the gun can take heavier loads, and who knows? it might shoot it's best with a 70 or 80 grain load.

Also in my opinion, millions of rounds were fired in the past with loads around 60 grains and a lot of animals and people died because of it.

I think a lot of the folks using modern muzzleloaders are thinking with "modern guns" in mind and are trying to get Magnum velocities out of their front-stuffer. In other words, they are overloading their guns.

IMO one of the reasons for people buying rifles like the .300 Weatherby Magnum is some of them are trying to get the cartridges ballistics to make up for their inability to make accurate, clean killing shots. (This is just a generalization, so no one here should take it personally).

History has proven that muzzleloaders don't need hyper-velocity loads to kill cleanly. The balls/bullets are much larger in diameter than most modern guns.
Muzzleloaders use this size advantage to create massive distruction to whatever they hit. Because the ball/bullet is larger than most modern slugs will expand to, all that is really needed with a muzzleloader is accuracy, good (not extreme) velocity and the shooter placing the shot in a critical place.

Along these lines, think about history:
The Germans had the .30 Mauser and Luger. Both were very high velocity rounds. They were replaced by a slower 9mm Parabelem.
We had abandoned the .45ACP and went to a .38 special. When that wouldn't stop the madman attacks in the Phillippines we went back to the larger, slower .45ACP. Its stopping power prevailed.
Our police had 9mm, and went to the 10mm (.40 cal). Why? IMO, because larger slugs hit harder and are more deadly.
I suspect there are officers who would love to go back to a larger .45ACP.

Think Big Ball/Slug, Accuracy and Shot Placement. Works every time!

OK, I'll get off my soapbox! :shocking:

 

[Ravenx]

Zonie, I agree. I'm still learning here. I'm used to firing 80 grains out of my GPR, so I just kind of went along those lines. Thanks for your opinion, though, it makes sense.

One thing, I simply have to nitpick about. The Germans went from .30 Mauser to the 9mm Luger. (Interestingly, the Soviets adopted a 7.62x25 which is very similar to the .30 Mauser. To this day, body armor has to be proofed against that round; most body armor does not stop it.) The Luger was a 9mm handgun. The U.S. Army went from .45LC, then to the .38 Long Colt (not .38 Special) then to .45ACP. The 10mm and .40S&W are also two separate calibers. It was the FBI that wanted to go with 10mm but many of their agents could not handle the recoil. The .40S&W was the result of trying to tone that round down to sell to police agencies. But there are some who call the .40S&W the .40 Short & Weak.

 

[RussB]

Zonie seez; "Think Big Ball/Slug, Accuracy and Shot Placement. Works every time!
OK, I'll get off my soapbox!"

Russ seez; Get back up on that box, you ain't through yet....I hope. :sorry:

I would like to hear a bit more where you started saying..."I think a lot of the folks using modern muzzleloaders are thinking with "modern guns" in mind and are trying to get Magnum velocities out of their front-stuffer"..........
It makes good, even great, sense to me...guess I just like hearing it. How would you[url] define...in[/url] terms of weight & velocity..a medium or moderate load?... A "heavy" load?... and a "magnum" load? :hmm:
Lets use a .54 cal as your example.
Use either RB or conical, doesn't matter.

I will start by saying a "light" load, in a .54, is anything under 60gr FFg. using a PRB.....(however, this same "light" load is a favorite among the "paper punchers", who take my money and leave me mad. :cry:

I always thought the Mississippi was a full length rifle...goes to show how much I know! :redface:

Russ

 

[Zonie]

Raven: I'm sure there are a number of folks here who can help me out (although because it's about cartridge guns, it really doesn't belong on the forum).
The military went from a .45 long colt to a .38 S&W Special around 1899, later to the 1911 .45ACP. Somehow troops in the Philippines ended up with some .38s and they found that the .38s wouldn't stop the enemy troops who attacked with granades, pins pulled, suicide style. The .45ACP would stop them.
As for the Luger, I'm sitting here with my 1906 .30 cal DWM in my lap. Many of them (not mine) were used by the Germans in WW I.

RussB: There are a lot of folks here who can give you better numbers than I can.
IMO for a .54 I would say 110-120 grain FFg load would be more than adaquate for anything less than a Grizzly.
For deer, I think 85-95 grains would do the job out to 100 yards. When I see modern muzzleloading loads of 120-180 grain loads, I have to ask, Why?
I know of several folks who use 150 grains in a .50 caliber gun. Here again, I wonder why?
Yes, I know all about the flat trajectory stuff, but for Iron Sight shooting, where (IMO) 100 yards is about max for accurate shot placement in hunting conditions trajectory doesn't really come into MY style of muzzleloading hunting. :m2c: :imo:

 

[Ravenx]

Zonie, yes, some Lugers were made in .30 Mauser. But the cartridge the Luger is best known for is 9mm Parabellum, known as 9mm Luger by many manufacturers. The thing I wondered about your post was that you said the army went from .45ACP to .38 Special to .45ACP. Not so. The army went from .45LC to .38 Long Colt. The .38 Special was made due to unsatisfactory results with the .38LC in the Phillipines and the Spanish-American War. (Source: Cartridges of the World, 9th Edition). The Moros (the insurrectionists in the Phillipines) using grenades is not what they were known for. What was happening was that they bound their arms and legs to restrict blood flow and reduce blood loss due to wounds. They were also mostly under the influence of drugs, an opiate if I recall correctly. Opiates in the right dosage eliminate pain as well as altering one's consciousness. The problem was that Moros might take what would be fatal wound, but it didn't kill them fast enough to prevent them from hacking soldiers to death with bolo machetes and barongs. The Moros, if you recall, were also fanatical Muslims and, thusly, had religious fervor as well as the drug use. There are also documented instances of .30-40 Krag rifles failing to stop these people, resulting in the 12 gauge Winchester 1897 loaded with 00 buck being a preferred arm. It was from this experience the .45ACP was born.


I'm still learning about muzzleloading, but found 80 grains FFG to be an optimal load in my .54 GPR. :results: