1842 Rifled Musket

[wahkahchimaol.com]

When were the rifled 1842's issued to troops? Any down by Oklahoma? If not, what rifles would have been seen in the Oklahoma/Texas/Comacheria area in 1856-1858? In the hands of military and civilians.

 

[varsity07840]

Duane I know that this is a bit odd, but I'm wondering if I should give my hero in my novel...set in 1856...a rifled 1842 to shoot. In what context are you shooting it? What living history are you doing? What persona?

Also if I get a Whitacre or Hoyt .69 barrel, can I put it on a 1842 Armisport? Would you recommend a gunsmith to do this?

Thanks.

Pete

If your hero is a civilian I wouldn't go with the '42 since I don't think many found their way into civilian hands until after the Civil War.

I hunt with my muskets and I've taken deer with the full length 1842 and a smoothbore 1816. I'm not into living history.

If you tell Dan Whitacre that the barrel is for an Armi, he'll make it that way. I believe Bob Hoyt will also do it.

Duane


Duane

 

[Zonie]

I don't know where the rifled M1842's were sent.

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Another strange question: since there were literally 100,000 + percussion conversion 1816's did anyone try putting a rifled barrel on any of those? Thanks.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Another strange question: since there were literally 100,000 + percussion conversion 1816's did anyone try putting a rifled barrel on any of those? Thanks.

Yes and several thousand had new Maynard tape locks made by Remington installed on them. This by the way was the style of tape lock adopted by the War Dept. for the M1855 Rifle-musket. It was reduced in size to fit the new arm.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Sir, I expect you must be familiar with John Salmon ("RIP") Ford's collected memoirs "RIP" Ford's Texas...
http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exforri2.html

Nary a mention of the '42 rifle-musket in there, but several pertaining the Mississippi Rifle during the 1850's when he was actively patrolling the Frontier, to the point that this was the primary combat arm of his Rangers when their revolvers were "unserviceable" (from what I gather, revolvers were in short supply during the early 1850's).

Mississipi's figure prominently again in his account of his 1860 expedition up into the Indian Territories against the Comanches, to the point that it was Caddos (his own account, others sources have them being Tonkawas) armed with Mississippis what brung down the Comanche Iron Jacket in his old Spanish Armor.

These would, of course be the original .54 cal round ball version.

Never owned but I've handled a rifled '42 at least. A long, heavy and unwieldy thing it seemed, with a conspicuous bright-finished barrel. Didn't help its impact on Texas history any that these things were apparently issued to those unhappy infantry units tasked with protecting the vast Texas frontier against Horse Indians.

Given my druthers, if'n I was tolling around the Texas Frontier in the 1850's, I'd take a Mississippi or ordinary civilian Plains-style rifle any day over a '42.

I expect your hero would too unless he had compelling reasons to the contrary. And Mississippis were apparently around in sufficient quantities such that even Indian allies were issued them.

One has to ask too, how much had minie technology spread in civilian hands even AFTER the Civil War, let alone in the 1850's. Weren't our very first adoption of it even in military hands a Jeff Davis brainchild, in the mid 1850's?

I expect most Americans would first encounter minie technology during the Civil War.

Birdwatcher

 

[nkbj]

I don't know where the rifled M1842's were sent.

I think I read some where, some time or the other, that a shipment came up missing. I will go look and see if it will pop up.

 

[poordevil]

When were the rifled 1842's issued to troops? Any down by Oklahoma? If not, what rifles would have been seen in the Oklahoma/Texas/Comacheria area in 1856-1858? In the hands of military and civilians.

The Hall breechloader would have been around in pretty good numbers.

 

[nkbj]

Not what I was looking for...
http://www.westcoastcampaigner.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-559.html
"Evidently Springfield Armory made up about 3,000 of these to Major John C. Fremont's specifications for his intended revolution / annexation in California. The gun was a rifled .69 caliber '42 with a 33" barrel and long range ladder sights. (same length barrel as the Mississippi and Naval Enfield). The guns were delivered to California..."

Once upon a time I thought I read about some crated 1847's sinking on a ship in a bay.

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

So somewhere out there in a neighboring barn is a 1842 rifled "Fremont Special"? One interesting part of my life experience is that as I grew up on a wilderness ranch I found rusting smoothbore 1816's on every neighboring ranch. I probably found about 5 of them. Most of them are now relict class since most were consigned to the barn rafters. Local legend says that these were militia muskets from local Union militias in the 1850's and Civil War. I'll go back and look again at the few to which I still have access and see if I can find rear sights and rifling. Still, at some point in California 19th Century history the converted-to-percussion smoothbore was for some reason very, very common.

 

[varsity07840]

Also would this rifled gun with the standard load work for bison and elk?

I would think the service load would be more than sufficient for
elk. I can't comment on bison. I honestly don't know what kind of penetration that big, slow moving pure lead bullet would yield on an animal like that. Perhaps a larger charge would be in order, if the shooter could stand the recoil. I seem to remember some posts from a gentleman shooting a rifled Armi '42 with the big minie and 75gr of 3F SWISS!!!!!.

Duane

 

[nkbj]

There was a post once upon a time about braves on horse back blowing up smooth bores by letting the ball roll back down off the powder when they pointed it into the animal. Those would have been 20 Ga. or 14 Ga. like the 1842's. So, my thought was that if it hadn't worked for them maybe they would have found a different way of doing it.

 

[varsity07840]

There was a post once upon a time about braves on horse back blowing up smooth bores by letting the ball roll back down off the powder when they pointed it into the animal. Those would have been 20 Ga. or 14 Ga. like the 1842's. So, my thought was that if it hadn't worked for them maybe they would have found a different way of doing it.

Perhaps. I was speaking to the issue of a humane kill. I think, despite the energy produced at the muzzle with the service load that a close range shot would be needed. That minie would shed energy pretty quickly and the trajectory of that load would be pretty bad. I read the book by Mike Venturino about hunting with buffalo guns and how much it can take to put one down for good.

Duane

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Birdwatcher, that's great info. Google "Iron Jacket" and you find this amazing frontier personality...Quanah Parker's grandfather! Wow that's fascinating...and you are right, that Mississippi rifle popped up all over the place didn't it? From what I'm reading it worked best in roundball configuration. Am I reading that right? Thanks.

 

[Birdwatcher]

When the "Mississippi" rifle was adopted in 1841 (the moniker "Mississippi would not be applied until about 1847), patched round ball was about the only game in town for American rifles although by then the Brits were using the 1837 Brunswick percussion rifle with an odd shaped ball designed to fit a two-groove rifling.

Certainly the conical minie "ball" technology with its hollow base had not yet been fully devised even overseas by 1841 and it would be not until another fourteen years had passed (1855) that we adopted that projectile design.

The sights on the original Mississippis were traditional too, a simple "v" notch and blade front (which was later deemed insuffucient for the greater range imparted by the minie "ball" design).

These were the Mississippis in use in Texas in the 1850's. The rifling of these was designed for use with, and shot best with a patched round ball. Besides which, I dunno that .54 calier minies were ever produced.

In the first half of the 1800's, the French were considered to be the be-all and end-all of everything military. Napoleon had been French, his tactics were the basis for instruction at West Point and the Minie ball is named after a French guy.

Hence in the 1850's, when Jeff Davis became Secretary of War, he looked to France for ideas. Our first Western cavalry outfit, the 2nd US Cavalry (AKA "Jeff Davis's Own") which was sent to Texas was modelled after French cavalry units in North Africa. During that same period, Davis even had camels brung to Texas for military trials.

So in the 1850's our military longarms were redesigned on a European pattern when we went to .58 caliber rifled muskets designed to fire a minie-type projectile. This began with the Model of 1855.

(the Brits had done the exact same thing, which is why their .577 Enfields were so very similar to our .58 Springfield rifled muskets)

After 1855, the conversion of thousands of pre-existing .54 round ball rifled Mississippis to .58 caliber minie ball rifled Mississippis first began. Most often the rear sight was switched out too, to a multiple folding leaf design.

In any event, IIRC prior to the war Between the States these conversions went slowly, and perhaps not at all on examples already out in State arsenals.

Perhaps this boring-out of Mississippi rifles from .54 to .58 sometimes went poorly, resulting in poor accuracy with minies I dunno. If there were .54 caliber minie bulets available, all the Mississippis that could shoot it would have round-ball rifling.

Birdwatcher