1842 US rifled musket

[Tumblernotch]

Actually ffg is closer to what musket powder was back then and I also would recommend going to the coarser powder. fffg will work, but you have to reduce the charge.

 

[Moloch]

I use the softes lead available but Iam not able to blow the skirt into the rifling with ANY powder charge of FFG. - I tried up to 100 grain and still no luck. Reliable expansion of the skirt starts with about 70 grains of FFFG and is best at around 90 grain, although I havent shot more than 5 shot with 90 grain yet. I know someone having a original 1842 .69 rifled and a friend who shoots a .58 Springfield 1842, both tried hard with FFG but stepped up to FFFG because they get much better expansion of the bullets base. The guy with the .69 uses 83 grain with a 850 grain conical (with only one greese groove) and sais he can get groups of 4'' at 100, the shooter of the .58 settled down on about 60-65 grain of FFFG for his 620 grain minié.

How the soldiers in the civila war could get the minié shooting with only a 70 grain charge of FFG is a miracle to me. Lead didnt change so much in the last 140 years. With this load I get keyholes ONLY.

One thing you can do is put shims between the muzzle of the barrel and the stock. That will tighten the upper band and prevent it from moving so much. Just leave it loose enough that you can remove it whenever you need to.

That is one good suggestion! :grin: I have already ordered a tighter spring to hold the front barrel band tighter, but shims between barrel and stock is a good idea too. I'll try it out next week when my new podwer arrives.

Another thing is to carefully file the sight so that it can be centered in the backsight instead of you having to try to line up a big blob in the notch.

That is a good suggestion too because the front sight is just plain idiotic, but I wont modify it as the soldiers had to live with the same problem. I think I need a bit of range time and the sights wont be much a problem anymore.

 

[varsity07840]

I honestly think that the problem does not lie with 2F's inability to expand the minie. A 100 gr. charge is way more than enough to expand a pure lead hollow base bullet. Case in point. Alot of original .45-70 trapdoor Springfields have oversized bores. While the rule of thumb is to use a bullet .001 over groove to groove diameter, that is sometimes a problem if it measures .460 or so and the best you can get out of the mould is .458. However, a soft(not pure) lead bullet
will bump up into the rifling from the inertia, and give acceptable accuracy. That's with a 70 gr charge of 1 1/2F with a solid base bullet in 20/1
alloy. Now, the big problem here is keeping the fouling soft enough so you don't have a leading problem. I'm taking the long way round here, but I think that may be your problem. A leaded barrel will cause flyers and keyholes all the time. Depending on what you're using to clean with, you may think the bore is clean, but in reality the grooves are filled with lead. Alot of times it won't show up with a bore light. My original '63 has an excellent bore for it's age, but the bore leaded easily when I first had it because I was shooting .578 mines in a bore that I didn't know was .585. If the fouling you're getting is hard enough to make it difficult to get the minie down, then it's probably leading on the way out.
If it is a lead problem, you're in for some time consuming scrubbing to get it out.

Keep at it!!!

Duane

 

[arquebus]

Moloch said:

they require hard pushing on the last 7'' down the chamber after the third shot

I shoot a few Rifle-Muskets in MLAIC competition & we are not allowed to wipe the bore between shots. To help keep the fouling under control I use some Cream of Wheat between powder & Minie (approx. 2/3 the volume of the powder charge). Not sure what you would have similar to CofW in Austria, maybe Semolina? Haven't graduated to the big-bores yet, still working with my .56 & .58 calibers but enjoy reading about your experiences. Good luck with your experiments.

PS I'd also recommend the shimming. I place cardboard shims under the barrel at each barrel band so they are snug, & also under the breech so the bolster is just clear of the lockplate.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I agree. The original .58's and .69's used a minie that averaged .005" under bore size, but that was to overcome fouling in battle and still get acceptable accuracy against massed troops. Moloch needs a bullet no more than .002" under and properly lubed to make loading easier and most importantly to prevent bore leading and gas blowby and of course to ensure better bullet expansion no matter what the powder charge.

I use about a 70/20 mix of beeswax and Crisco for lube. This is close to the same ratio as the originals, maybe a little "wetter". The original ratio was 8 to 1 beeswax and tallow. It holds up good in hot weather and was used in the paper cartridge. I also only apply it to the grooves. The bullets are placed on their bases on a pan and lowered into a pan of melted lube to a point just above the upper groove. Then removed and allowed to cool. I then drive them through a sizer that is just tight enough to strip the excess lube off. I can shoot many rounds without wiping and the bullet is only .001" under bore size.

I rarely get any keyholes and that's usually when there is some build-up or a bullet with a void slips by. One other thing that I do is something that I've read where everyone says not to do. When I'm running minies, I get my lead as hot as possible using a gas stove. Sometimes the bullets frost a bit, but that doesn't hurt them at all. You need the lead as hot as you can stand it when running large minies. Sometimes you can see where the skirt is not 100% concentric or a little thicker on one side and the hotter lead seems to do away with this most of the time.

I think that by getting the bullet as close to bore size as possible and proper lubing will make a big difference and if he can tighten that sight up, it will make for more consistancy.

Then, when all is said and done, we have to remember that these weapons were not designed to shoot like a varmint rifle or a chunk gun. But they are capable of very small groups at at least 50 yds. In my younger days I've put 5 minies in a half dollar size area at 50 yds offhand and I've seen a few shoot even tighter. (I couldn't do it now to save my life). You can get 'em in the X-Ring, but these are peculiar animals. The next target may look like it was shot with a buck and ball load, then the next you're back in the middle. It's a mystery that's fun to try to solve.

 

[kgrohs]

here's another monkey wrench thrown inas I havent read or heard is this 1842 smooth bored? if it is you are goimg to key hole everytime, and no amount of fiddling is going to help it, and if it is rifled your lube is fine, now the round ball wrapped believe it or not with alluminum foil and diped in your lube will also do good.

Also if your 1842 is rifled your bullet should be sized to .002" under bore diam. for best accuracy, you don't need a huge recoil to the shoulder to get the accuracy, also need to add, if the musket is rifled and you still are getting keyholes, you need to pull the breach plug to see if you have a blown skirt, that will give you keyholes every time , it has happend to me after a hard and heavy charge was done in my springfield 1962 special model. I turely hope this helps you. kjg

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

How will pulling the breech plug tell you whether or not you have a blown skirt?

 

[varsity07840]

Good point Ranger. I crank up the heat on my pot, too. The first one I had was a Lee, and I had loads of trouble getting minies to cast well. While at Ray Rapine's shop to pick up a mould, I mentioned the problem to him and his answer was simple. The leads not hot enough. He gave me a lesson right there in casting, using one of his pots that can reach 1000 degrees. Workwed great and I went home with one. Not cheap, but well worth it. You need very hot lead to fill out that mould. Casting an original style .69 minie could be a PIA. I lube and size mine the same way.

Duane

 

[Tumblernotch]

I think it works the best. I don't have a .69 rifle, though I have cast quite a few .69 Minies. These are Old Original Style from an Ideal mold.(685 gr.) Just for kicks, I shot some from a smoothbore with predictable results. I used to sell some to a CW sutler.

Most of mine are .575's that I shoot from a Richmond rifle-musket with a .576 bore. It takes very hot lead to properly cast even these. You know it takes a lot to cast the big 'uns. The bad thing about the Lyman and Ideal molds is the fact that the base plug is separate from the mold and when you remove it to release the bullet, it starts cooling a little. There is less of a problem with the Lee where the base plug is part of the mold. But even it loses some of its heat. My Lee Minies (505 gr.) shot very well, but my mold hasn't held up as well as the iron Lyman.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Moloch's '42 is a rifled-musket.

I'm with Russ T Frizzen on this one. How will pulling the breech plug tell you if you're blowing the skirt? If there is a ring of lead or any other remains left in the barrel, you should be able to feel it when cleaning or loading.

If you haven't modified your mold to cast a super thin skirt, no amount of powder that you can shoot without breaking your shoulder is going to blow it or melt it anyway. Of course, sometimes if the lead is too cold, the skirt will have wrinkles on the inside and maybe some thin spots and those could possibly rupture with a heavy load. But there shouldn't be any of these weak spots to start with.

 

[poordevil]

the lube I use is a 50-50 (or there abouts) bees wax and mutton tallow. I warm it in the double boiler method. Container of lube(custard glass) in a container of water . warm up the water, it melts the lube, stir it as it melts to mix it. When melted I grab a minnie by the nose and dip it quickly into the greese groves, in, out real quick and place it on wax paper. I do not clean between shots. This is plinking type shooting in the desert, with the milk jugs of water as the targets. I have never shot it for group but my hits are solid and the long range misses are not far. The ground is dug up all around the jugs. SOme thing you might try if you want a tighter fitting minnie is place the skirt over the nose of another and push till the skirt opens up some. Not real sienctific but it will tighten the bullet in the barrel a bit.

I have the Lee .690 round ball mold and it is too big to shoot using a patch. So the stunt I discribed (don't try this at home!) was with 2 naked balls(that sounds kind of dirty!) However I shoot an over powder shotgun wad bare ball and paper or something to hold ball down. It shoots ok that way.

Maybe I am so happy with mine because I do not expect too much from it or I got lucky and got a really fine one. The wood is fantastic. If I was not happy with the accuracy of mine and need more for targets I would contact Withiker(?) who makes barrels for N-SSA shooters. that will give you a target gun for sure.

 

[Moloch]

I feel I am getting somewhere. This time I weighed the bullets and not just sorted the ugly ones out. Surprisingly some bullets where only 710 grains heavy, others over 755 grains with no visiable differences! :shocked2: So this time I only used bullets ranging from 725 to 735 grain without visable skirt damage, wrinkles and visable air pockets in their hollow bases. 10 grain tolerance max, so 2/3 of all bullets where unacceptable! Went shootign and clearly found out that bullets go supersonic with 85 grain swiss 3FG, with 75 grain the bullets where just a tad below speed of sound and were more accurate.

Here are my targets, one 50yds and one 100yds. At the 100yds target I went out of bullets, two keyholed because accidentally half the powder was still sticking in the powder measure, same with the keyhole at 50yds target. It was very humid and powder was a bit sticky.

This time I also used 3/4 beeswax and only 1/4 tallow with better results instead of 50/50. I put some card under the barrel where the barrel bands are to tighten up he barrel. I think it helped quiet a bit-. Thanks for the suggestion! :v

50yds target:
100yds target:

I would have been a lot better without the high-shots the rifle produced. I had to aim about 10'' low at 50 and about 5'' at 100.

Its a military rifle, it had been treated like a military rifle and from a military point of view as a soldier I had 100% kill shots at regular combat distance. No cleaning between the shots and very fast loading and shooting with a hot barrel.

Its not a target rifle!

By the way, after shooting 50 of these beast downrange with 75 grain 3FG my shoulder got pretty much destroyed and is out of service for at least a week. I think I am a very brave boy! :grin: :wink:

 

[nkbj]

Hello, my name is GoodCheer and I'm a Fremontolic.
In the beginning I was just using a little powder but as time went on I used more and more. I knew I was hurting myself but I couldn't stop. Now I've set my sights on getting with a better group.

So, has anybody got this frustrating rascal to group reliably with round ball yet? Mine changes it's mind. Just when you think it OK...it isn't!
Gonna try some over powder cards and lubed fiber wads under thin patched ball next. Recovered patches have shown an interesting problem; the gathered up material doesn't get distributed evenly in this big of a three groove barrel. Gonna see if a relatively thin cotton patch will help.

By the way, my Lyman minie mold drops out at 685 as well. Just too much stretching to get consistent results.

Concerning pulling the breech plug to check for skirts or poor rifling...don't worry. You can see plumb to the bottom of that tube and take pictures down it if you want to.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Are you sizing the minie balls to your bore? Best accuracy comes from a minie ball that is .001" smaller than your actual bore diameter.

If you are shooting PRB, then think twice before using any patch that is thinner than .015". Better to use .018" and sometimes thicker patching for the ball. An OP wad will do a much better job of sealing the bore behind your PRB and give more consistent velocity. That should help a lot in getting more consistent groups. A good, lubed, felt wad between the OP wad and the PRB will help to grease the barrel, and keep fouling soft. Do wipe the barrel between shots to remove the crud, and keep barrel conditions as consistent from shot to shot as possible for best groups.

 

[nkbj]

Loading PBR in something this big and with three groove rifling isn't working. Trust me, I've recovered the fired patches, done did the math...this thing aint normal.
It's plumb amazing to see how the patch material bunches up instead of being evenly distributed. Tried 675's with various thickness patches. Gonna try 683's with fiber wad and thin patch. Time to break out the circle template and scissors.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Can I ask you to tell us what diameter bore your gun is? If your ball is way undersized, you have to use denim- and very thick denim at that--for patching the ball. If you push the ball into the muzzle on top of the patching, and then cut the patching off at the muzzle, you should have NO troubles with the patching bunching up unevenly on one side or the other.

The only time I have seen anything close to this kind of problem is when someone was using undersized "pre-cut " patches, and was not properly centering the patch on the muzzle. DON'T skimp on patch material! Use enough- even square patches work just fine-- so that the ball is surrounded by the fabric. And use a thick enough patching so that the fabric has to compress to fill the grooves, no matter how many there are.

 

[nkbj]

That's the strange part about this pattern rifling in this large a diameter.
When you short start the ball, the linear dimension of the patch circle where the ball diameter is at tangent to the bore is 1.23" greater than that of the bore perimeter. That 1.23" of "extra" material has to go somewhere. With this pattern of rifling it doesn't go somewhere evenly due to the three way stretching action on the 90 degree warp and woof of the fabric. I had to recover a bunch of patches before I cottoned on to this. Reminds me of Engineer Scott's comment about over taking the plumbing.
If I had a roundball pattern of rifling it would be staked at each of several grooves in a more even fashion. So, I'm gonna try to out wit it. By the way, the bore diameter is a real 69.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Any idea how deep the grooves are? That is going to go a long way to determining patch thickness that is Usable in the gun. If its less than .006" deep, then I think you do need to consider trying OP wads that are at least Groove diameter, to seal the gas behind the ball. Then, use a patch that is at least 1.5 times as thick as the grooves are deep. The fabric will compress, and move over or "stretch" a bit to move into the grooves, from the land. The result will be a good tight fit, and NO movement of the cloth patch around the ball. I believe you were using too small a diameter ball with too thin a patch before, and that was the cause of your troubles.

 

[Zonie]

You've got me confused a bit.

By saying it is 1.23 inches larger than the bore perimeter are you saying the bore perimeter is 2.167 inches and the amount of material that is contacting the bore is 2.167 inches (.69 times Pi) + 1.230 inches making the total length of the contact length 3.397 ? If you are, then I must agree with you. Something is very strange.

According to my calculations the diameter of the contact circle for a .69 caliber bore (rifled or unrifled) would be about 1.084 inches, that being equal to 1/2 of the circumference of the roundball.

The proper patch diameter (or the size of a square if you like square patches) would be 1/2 of the ball circumference plus one ball diameter or, 1.77 inches.

Using a patch of this size in theory would locate the patch edge flush with the muzzle when the ball and patch had been seated so that the top tangent point of the ball was flush with the muzzle.

Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

That's the strange part about this pattern rifling in this large a diameter.
When you short start the ball, the linear dimension of the patch circle where the ball diameter is at tangent to the bore is 1.23" greater than that of the bore perimeter. That 1.23" of "extra" material has to go somewhere. With this pattern of rifling it doesn't go somewhere evenly due to the three way stretching action on the 90 degree warp and woof of the fabric. I had to recover a bunch of patches before I cottoned on to this. Reminds me of Engineer Scott's comment about over taking the plumbing.
If I had a roundball pattern of rifling it would be staked at each of several grooves in a more even fashion. So, I'm gonna try to out wit it. By the way, the bore diameter is a real 69.

The shallow, three groove rifling in a rifled musket like the M1842, reproduction or original, is/was designed to work with a Minié ball, why try to force it to work with something else? Patched round ball works better with deeper grooved rifling. Oh, and mine measures .685 like most other repop ".69".