1853 Enfield bad range day

[Columbus]

Took my Armi Sport 1853 Enfield to the range for the first time yesterday. I had pure lead minie balls cast by me using Lee's 575-500 and Lyman's 575-213AV molds. Lube was a mix of beeswax and Crisco. I shot a number of rounds alternating bullets as well as powder charges. Results were unsatisfactory to say the least, I could have done better throwing rocks at the target. Suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[dave951]

Took my Armi Sport 1853 Enfield to the range for the first time yesterday. I had pure lead minie balls cast by me using Lee's 575-500 and Lyman's 575-213AV molds. Lube was a mix of beeswax and Crisco. I shot a number of rounds alternating bullets as well as powder charges. Results were unsatisfactory to say the least, I could have done better throwing rocks at the target. Suggestions would be appreciated.

Use the search function.

Getting minies to shoot isn't rocket science.

What powder, brand, charge amount?
What caps?
Did you actually, physically measure the bore size?
Did you "slam ram" the minies?
Is your inletting putting force on the barrel?

 

[Columbus]

My apologies for asking a question when I should have realized I might have used the search function to find answers to what is obviously a simple, not rocket science issue.

Powder was Goex FFFG, charge was 40gr, 50gr, 60gr - measured by volume
Caps were Schuetzen musket caps
No, I have not "actually" or "physically" measured the bore size as I have no way to do so.
I've no idea what "slam-ramming" the minies means.
The musket is "as is" from the factory - I've not removed the bbl, no reason to think there are any inletting issues.

 

[dave951]

My apologies for asking a question when I should have realized I might have used the search function to find answers to what is obviously a simple, not rocket science issue.

Powder was Goex FFFG, charge was 40gr, 50gr, 60gr - measured by volume
Caps were Schuetzen musket caps
No, I have not "actually" or "physically" measured the bore size as I have no way to do so.
I've no idea what "slam-ramming" the minies means.
The musket is "as is" from the factory - I've not removed the bbl, no reason to think there are any inletting issues.

Inletting from the factory can be a cause for accuracy issues. Take all the screws out and barrel bands off. Put in just the tang screw. If the barrel lifts at the front, you have a problem.

Bore size is critical for accuracy. Many repros are way large meaning a .575-6 minie will not be accurate from a .580 barrel. You minie MUST be .001 under the actual bore size. Use plug gauges, available on Amazon, to find this measurement. Alternatively, most machine shops have complete sets and can do it for you.

Slam ram- you'll see many videos showing pounding the minie in by slamming the ramrod on the bullet. This will deform the nose and cause instability.

There's lots of bad information on how to shoot a minie rifle on the net, much of which is reenactor lore, and some is just misinterpreted history.

 

[wiscoaster]

...
The musket is "as is" from the factory

New rifle? Take it out shooting a couple more times before you let it get you down.

 

[TNGhost]

My apologies for asking a question when I should have realized I might have used the search function to find answers to what is obviously a simple, not rocket science issue.

Powder was Goex FFFG, charge was 40gr, 50gr, 60gr - measured by volume
Caps were Schuetzen musket caps
No, I have not "actually" or "physically" measured the bore size as I have no way to do so.
I've no idea what "slam-ramming" the minies means.
The musket is "as is" from the factory - I've not removed the bbl, no reason to think there are any inletting issues.

With a Minie shooting rifle getting the correct bore size is critical. The is a wide range of bore sizes, with some manufacturers being more guilty of variance than others. Don't know about their Enfields, but I know Armi Sport Zouaves had a reputation for having to find the right size projectile. Lee sells several different mold sizes to account for this.

I went through this with my Zouave and ended up with a larger than nominal diameter projectile/mold. I posted a thread, I think, here with links to articles/vids about this, how to measure the bore and links to the molds. I'll try to see if I can find it and repost the info here.

In the meantime, some things to try are bumping up the powder charge a little at a time, putting lube in the base of the Minie and not putting it, in and different kinds of lube also different powder granulations and brands. If it turns out like mine though, it's the sizing that will be the solution. This is a common problem and there are a lot of vids and articles out there on making these guns shoot, measuring their bore size etc.

Here is one from here to get you started:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...ouave-accuracy-issues-with-minie-ball.119623/

 

[westrayer]

Minnie balls can be had in .575", .578", and .580". I had one and it shot best with a patched round ball. Probably not what you wanted to hear.
A new gun, and I have only had a few, required a bunch of patches covered in polishing compound up and down the bore before shooting for groups. They will come out black for quite a while but it really did help me. Even a used gun gets the same treatment as a means of starting with a clean and polished bore. A lot of new guns are shipped with an oiled barrel to prevent rust. Oil and BP don't seem to work for me.
Try contacting Buffalo Arms for their thoughts and possible bullets of different sizes.

 

[Columbus]

Both bullets I've cast measure out at .577 and either, unlubed, will drop into the barrel -

 

[Clark Badgett]

Both bullets I've cast measure out at .577 and either, unlubed, will drop into the barrel -

You can measure the ball but not the bore?

 

[TFoley]

Both bullets I've cast measure out at .577 and either, unlubed, will drop into the barrel -

Oh. The Minié bullet ought to be a 'thumb push' fit' - it DOES need to engage at least with the lands of the rifling - but in an ideal world the weight of the ramrod ought to carry it down to the powder charge. As noted above, pounding the bejabbers out of it will achieve nothing but sorrow, woe and rue - not necessarily in that order, but the result will inevitably be akin to throwing the bullet underarm....

A pal of ours has a similar Euroarms P53 with a bore of .580".... once he'd gotten over the shock/cost of having to have the mould made for him stateside it now shoots very well.

The service load, by the way, was 2 and 1/2 drams - 68.5gr - of fine rifle powder, about the same as today's 2Fg, some say.

 

[westrayer]

Shooting FFFg vs FFg will give you a bit more pressure and velocity. That should help to expand the skirt. Start out at 50 grains if shooting FFFg. A 5 grain difference in charge will often make a difference.

 

[Trot]

Absolutely the first step is to determine bore size, if the minies are too small you can change powder charges all day and it won’t do any good. Pin gauges on Amazon are cheap, get a couple in the .577 .579 range.

 

[Johnnyntrain]

Took my Armi Sport 1853 Enfield to the range for the first time yesterday. I had pure lead minie balls cast by me using Lee's 575-500 and Lyman's 575-213AV molds. Lube was a mix of beeswax and Crisco. I shot a number of rounds alternating bullets as well as powder charges. Results were unsatisfactory to say the least, I could have done better throwing rocks at the target. Suggestions would be appreciated.

Took my Armi Sport 1853 Enfield to the range for the first time yesterday. I had pure lead minie balls cast by me using Lee's 575-500 and Lyman's 575-213AV molds. Lube was a mix of beeswax and Crisco. I shot a number of rounds alternating bullets as well as powder charges. Results were unsatisfactory to say the least, I could have done better throwing rocks at the target. Suggestions would be appreciated.

Worth watching about Italian repro muskets. In short, the rifling is way too shallow as opposed to originals or for example refined or new barrel, Bobby Hoyt in Gettysburg does a reline. Not saying you can't generate good results but you'll have to find the right charge and ball to compensate.

 

[Sam squanch]

Have you tried paper patching your bullets? Fun to try and you can at least use your undersized bullets.

 

[dave951]

Both bullets I've cast measure out at .577 and either, unlubed, will drop into the barrel -

If they just "drop into the barrel", that's a huge red flag. A minie that is close to the correct size will not do that. For a "drop in", your windage is at least .005+ and maybe more and that is in no way conducive to accuracy. From your description, I'd bet the bore is .580+.

To get a repro, or original, to shoot well, you must be within .001 of the actual, measured bore size. I have a friend, and N-SSA team mate, that shoots an original LG&Y and it takes .580 to shoot well and it's as original as they come. With a .580, it will shoot most style minies very well and some more than others.

You can get pin gauges on Amazon for about $5-7 ea and you only need a couple. You know that your bore is over .577, way over, so I'd suggest starting with these pin gauges- .578, .580 and .582. If .578 drops in and .580 won't, your bore is .579ish and that's close enough. If .580 drops in and .582 doesn't, your bore is about .581. Do NOT attempt to force these when measuring. It's just a finger held, slip fit.

Once you have that dimension, order a sampling of minies from here and HERE ONLY-
https://www.lodgewood.com/Bullets_c_7.html
Order a selection based on your size and be sure to specify the size needed. To answer a question before it's asked- Lodgewood is the ONLY source I trust for commercially cast minies. Their minies are cast by a N-SSA competitor who knows what he's doing. Stuff from a round ball place like Track or Log Cabin is hit or miss, mostly miss on quality. They may know round ball, but the guy casting for Lodgewood is a specialist who is very good on quality.

Depending on where you are, I'd also recommend getting to know some N-SSA folks. We compete with these critters in live fire competition and know what it takes to get one to shoot.

Repro 1862 Colt Contract. Flyer is from a broken nipple. And yes, the nipple is a wear item. Keep spares on hand.

This group is 10 shots, rapid fire, offhand at 50yd from a "Zoli" Zouave. Even most repros can be made to shoot well with some load development.

 

[Trot]

Best advice I can give is, listen to Dave, he knows his stuff.

 

[1General_Grant]

Worth watching about Italian repro muskets. In short, the rifling is way too shallow as opposed to originals or for example refined or new barrel, Bobby Hoyt in Gettysburg does a reline. Not saying you can't generate good results but you'll have to find the right charge and ball to compensate.

Italian rifle musket reproductions don't even the same type of rifling as the originals, therefore they don't stabilize the bullets correctly.

 

[maillemaker]

To reiterate what others have said:

The key to accuracy with a muzzleloader with expanding ball ammunition is to use a bullet that is .001" - .002" under bore size.

You cannot trust what is stamped on the barrel to tell you what the actual bore size might be.

Likewise, you cannot trust what size the mold says the bullet is supposed to drop at.

One way to find a good fitting bullet is to cast one that does not fit down the bore, then size it down in .001" increments until you find one that fits. That is the size you need to use for best accuracy.

Another way is to buy a set of class ZZ "minus" pin gauges in .001" increments around your nominal bore size. Slip these into the muzzle until you find the size that doesn't fit. The next size smaller is your bore size. I buy mine from travers.com:

https://www.travers.com/category/class-zz-pin-gages

You need to use pure lead so that the bullets expand to take up the rifling. Alloys are harder and may not expand. You said you are using pure lead, so that is good.

When I do a load workup, I make up 10 shots from 40 grains to 60 grains in 5-grain increments (40, 45, 50, 55, 60). Shoot these from a bench rest.

Once you find a good group, you may wish to go back again in 2-grain increments around whatever charge gave the best group the first time around.

All of this is for precision/target/competition shooting. Military ammunition of the era was not sized with this kind of precision. A hit at 100 yards in period was hitting a target 6 feet tall by 2 feet wide at 100 yards off-hand. For N-SSA competition, you need to be able to hit a 6" square tile at 100 yards off-hand.